Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

[volatile]

Either accept that you are doing something to make your life difficult or don't do it. Trying to work around the difficulty is what I just do not understand.

Me either.

 

[BTMO]

It's not just Jews though, is it. Probably all religions.
During the holy month of Ramadan, for example, in the Middle East (well certainly in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, at least) locals start work later and finish earlier than normal, apparently to allow more/longer rest periods to compensate for a lack of energy due to not eating between sunrise and sunset. The locals' working "day" typically becomes 10.00 to 14.00. Oh - forgot to mention: eating between sunrise and sunset is only illegal in public places. Deduce from that what you will!

When I was in Bahrain, a number of things struck me as funny. We were ripped off (slightly) by a taxi driver who put his head dress over the meter on the taxi. We probably paid about twice as much as we should have from the airport to the hotel. It wasn't a long way (or very much), but it was the principle of the thing. In my defence, we were severly jetlagged... Normally I can do maths in my head.

Then, at breakfast each day, they served bacon (amusingly labelled "pork") in the restaurant in the hotel.

And we went to dinner with friends, and a LOT of locals and (we were told) Saudis were in the restaurant that we went to.

They were knocking the booze back much faster than we were... again, they took their head dresses off first.

Then there were the Russian hookers, etc, etc, etc...

 

[Southwind17]

And we went to dinner with friends, and a LOT of locals and (we were told) Saudis were in the restaurant that we went to.

They were knocking the booze back much faster than we were... again, they took their head dresses off first.

You were "told" they were Saudis! One only needs to observe the continuous stream of Saudi vehicles pouring over the Saudi-Bahrain causeway of a Thursday (and indeed Wednesday) evening and returning Saturday night/Sunday morning to realize what's on their weekend agenda! Must say though, most arabs I've seen boozing don't seem to give a hoot about wearing the head dress (that's those that aren't already in jeans and baseball caps!).

Then there were the Russian hookers, etc, etc, etc...

Sorry - where did you say you went?!

 

[BTMO]

You were "told" they were Saudis! One only needs to observe the continuous stream of Saudi vehicles pouring over the Saudi-Bahrain causeway of a Thursday (and indeed Wednesday) evening and returning Saturday night/Sunday morning to realize what's on their weekend agenda! Must say though, most arabs I've seen boozing don't seem to give a hoot about wearing the head dress (that's those that aren't already in jeans and baseball caps!).


Sorry - where did you say you went?!

We were there for about three days, and where basically ferried from hotel to hotel to shops to the museum by our friends. They could have told me they were from Saturn and I'd have believed them....



The ones who were drinking heavily were at Trader Vics at the Ritz-Carlton, the hookers were arm-candy for the US marines at the reception at the Radisson Diplomat Hotel (where we were staying).

It was a thoroughly bizarre, utterly wonderful place.

I'd go back tomorrow.

 

[zooterkin]

As long as you are happy to have the elevator running and stopping at all floors for 24 hours a week.

Indeed, who bears the extra cost of keeping them running non-stop, visiting every floor? And what about the annoyance to all the rest of the residents?

 

[volatile]

On the environmental theme, I remember reading recently about a landlord being sued by his Orthodox tennants because he had installed motion-sensitive lighting in the lobbies and hallways of a block of flats - an eminently sensible move given economic and environmental concerns. The tennants felt that they were unfairly "confined to their flat" over the Sabbath, as simply moving out their front door would mean them breaking the Sabbath laws...

 

[volatile]

How do you all feel about Sikhs protesting against having to wear hardhats / crash helmets where the law or even the uniform requirements (of, say, the police) mandate them?

 

[BTMO]

How do you all feel about Sikhs protesting against having to wear hardhats / crash helmets where the law or even the uniform requirements (of, say, the police) mandate them?

Pretty much the same way I feel about people who wear some form of mask over their faces getting a dispensation allowing them to be photographed wearing the mask for their drivers licences or passports...

 

[zooterkin]

On the environmental theme, I remember reading recently about a landlord being sued by his Orthodox tennants because he had installed motion-sensitive lighting in the lobbies and hallways of a block of flats - an eminently sensible move given economic and environmental concerns. The tennants felt that they were unfairly "confined to their flat" over the Sabbath, as simply moving out their front door would mean them breaking the Sabbath laws...

You may even have read about it here.

 

[Darth Rotor]

If you buy this definition, then observant Jews are, of necessity, much more mindful of God than Christians are, because Christians don't need to keep their rules in mind 24/7.

You've got a small problem there. To make that statement more correct, put "dietary" before "rules" in that sentence. The encouragement to be mindful of God 24/7 is a common Christian teaching, inherited from Judaism as I understand it. For example, Paul's admonition to "pray constantly" in Thessalonians 5: 14-18.

14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. ​

All that said, I agree with your observation that the use of dietary restriction as a way to get into the practice of being disciplined, and as such to better obey/honor God by being less bound to the material, the flesh, and to resist a particular convenience or physical urge is a useful behavioral tool.

Vegans do something similar, though perhaps not for a religious reason. (Is an ideological or political reason equivalent?)

DR

 

[CriticalThanking]

re: hospital/emergencies. My understanding is that one is required to take actions to preserve life and health. So if the doctor insists you need nourishment, you may not fast on a fast day. If you need food with meds, you may not fast and therefore skip your meds. As for the sabbath itself, you are obligated to do whatever work is necessary to preserve someone's life or health.

Another anecdote from the shtetl.... one is permitted to wash dishes on the sabbath because that is for health reasons. But one may not throw out the washing water (in the days before indoor plumbing) because there may be a carrot bottom in the washwater which may grow when you throw it outside and therefore "create life".

CT

 

[drkitten]

You've got a small problem there. To make that statement more correct, put "dietary" before "rules" in that sentence.

Not at all.

The encouragement to be mindful of God 24/7 is a common Christian teaching, inherited from Judaism as I understand it.

And the word "encouragement" is the primary difference. It's the difference between encouragement and enforcement. The Jewish dietary rules -- as well as a number of other behavioral rules -- enforce mindfulness of God. You can't go shopping for food without having to think about "what does God want me to eat"? You can't plan a meal without thinking about whether God will allow you to put butter on the table. Et cetera.

On the other hand, no one actually pays attention to whether Christians "pray without ceasing." It's certainly not a self-enforcing social norm the way "no smoking on the Sabbath" is.

A few years ago, when I was first teaching here, I had my first football player as a student. And he was everything the stereotypes tell you to fear -- as thick as a brick, lazy, and totally unmotivated. Nothing that I said could "encourage" him to do his homework or even the reading.

This lasted until I filed the midterm grade report, at which point I got a visit from the coach. I was expecting the worst -- "Well, he's a star linebacker, can't you cut him a break?" It was exactly the opposite. I explained my problems with "encouragement" and the coach said he'd take care of it. And, sure enough, he (the linebacker) pulled A's for the rest of the term, including on the tests. The coach, you see, has these little "enforced" study sessions for students who aren't doing well enough in class, and as soon as the coach knew that his linebacker was having problems, attendance was mandatory at these "little" daily four-hour study sessions.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Not at all.

And the word "encouragement" is the primary difference. It's the difference between encouragement and enforcement. The Jewish dietary rules -- as well as a number of other behavioral rules -- enforce mindfulness of God. You can't go shopping for food without having to think about "what does God want me to eat"? You can't plan a meal without thinking about whether God will allow you to put butter on the table. Et cetera.

I see what you were getting at, thanks.

Fish on Fridays is no longer mandatory, for example, which raises George Carlin's old question: Is that guy who did two eons in Purgatory for a baloney sandwich in 1945, on a Friday, going to get a reprieve?

DR

 

[Southwind17]

It was a thoroughly bizarre, utterly wonderful place.

I'd go back tomorrow.

After three years and the current economic climate I'm desperately trying to get out of the place. Wanna swap?!

On the environmental theme, I remember reading recently about a landlord being sued by his Orthodox tennants because he had installed motion-sensitive lighting in the lobbies and hallways of a block of flats - an eminently sensible move given economic and environmental concerns. The tennants felt that they were unfairly "confined to their flat" over the Sabbath, as simply moving out their front door would mean them breaking the Sabbath laws...

You may even have read about it here.

As with too many news reports the outcome seems to have got overlooked. I strongly suspect the law suit failed.

How do you all feel about Sikhs protesting against having to wear hardhats / crash helmets where the law or even the uniform requirements (of, say, the police) mandate them?

If I can't peacefully swill down a bacon butty with a pint of guinness when and where I like because the local law doesn't allow it then why should a concession be given to retaining the right to wear totally inappropriate head gear, thereby calling on tax-payer money to cover the inordinate neuro-surgeon expenses when such idiots come a cropper?

 

[drkitten]

I see what you were getting at, thanks.

Fish on Fridays is no longer mandatory, for example,

A very good example. It may not be mandatory, but it's still "culturally enforced" (at least around here) -- every restaurant within a hundred miles of here seems to do clam chowder as the Friday soup-of-the-day and the special is always a fish sandwich or something. You can't walk in to a restaurant without being forcibly reminded that God really wants you to eat fish today.

... if it's a Friday.

If you walk in on Tuesday, God apparently doesn't care what the Gentiles eat, and most of them aren't going to be reminded that He exists..

... unless you walk into a kosher deli, in which case you will be every time you order a ham and swiss.

which raises George Carlin's old question: Is that guy who did two eons in Purgatory for a baloney sandwich in 1945, on a Friday, going to get a reprieve?

Probably not. If you look at the OT God, He's a stickler for the rules.....

 

[Darth Rotor]

A very good example. It may not be mandatory, but it's still "culturally enforced" (at least around here) -- every restaurant within a hundred miles of here seems to do clam chowder as the Friday soup-of-the-day and the special is always a fish sandwich or something. You can't walk in to a restaurant without being forcibly reminded that God really wants you to eat fish today.

... if it's a Friday.

If you walk in on Tuesday, God apparently doesn't care what the Gentiles eat, and most of them aren't going to be reminded that He exists..

... unless you walk into a kosher deli, in which case you will be every time you order a ham and swiss.

Culturally encouraged, or enforced? I'd go with your encouragement versus enforcement on the Clam Chowder.

Probably not. If you look at the OT God, He's a stickler for the rules.....

And starting brush fires in the desert ...

 

[Southwind17]

It may not be mandatory, but it's still "culturally enforced" (at least around here) -- every restaurant within a hundred miles of here seems to do clam chowder as the Friday soup-of-the-day and the special is always a fish sandwich or something. You can't walk in to a restaurant without being forcibly reminded that God really wants you to eat fish today.

... if it's a Friday.

"Fish sandwich" eh. Funny, that's something I've never had, and I love fish. I've had tuna sandwiches and salmon sandwiches, but never a fish sandwich. I'm guessing you're not a Brit.

Talking of which, what you write above would probably have been true of the UK until around 1980, but since then mulligatawny followed by a choice of beef madras, lamb korma of chicken bhuna (possibly murgh masala) would be more the case! You can't walk into a restaurant without being forcibly reminded of the various UK Governments' immigration policies. And that's not a negative inference - you can't beat a good ruby!

 

[Elizabeth I]

On the environmental theme, I remember reading recently about a landlord being sued by his Orthodox tennants because he had installed motion-sensitive lighting in the lobbies and hallways of a block of flats - an eminently sensible move given economic and environmental concerns. The tennants felt that they were unfairly "confined to their flat" over the Sabbath, as simply moving out their front door would mean them breaking the Sabbath laws...

Why? Would that be any different than the Shabbat goyim custom (hope I've got that right) - hiring gentiles to perform actions on the Sabbath for Jews who were prohibited from performing them? Or that custom of roping off the entire area so that people can go out-of-doors without leaving "home" (or is it the temple)?

 

[volatile]

Why? Would that be any different than the Shabbat goyim custom (hope I've got that right) - hiring gentiles to perform actions on the Sabbath for Jews who were prohibited from performing them?

Does that happen? This site says one of the key prohibition is "Do Not Make (or allow) Others Work":
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
"Besides your not being allowed to work, you are prohibited from doing anything that will make the following people work. You are not to allow any of these to work[/FONT]:

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Your children [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any employee or person who would serve you (this includes any stranger who would serve you). [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any animal you own. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any non-Jewish person in your home.[/FONT]
  
  Ex 20:8-10[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
  Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to HaShem your G-d. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
  
  [/FONT] Exodus 23:12[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest and the slave born in your household, and the alien as well, may be refreshed."[/FONT]

 

[Darth Rotor]

Any non-Jewish person in your home.

I think the loophole is that the Shabaz Goy is someone outside of the home.