Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[Paulhoff]

Geezzzzzz

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=96719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD


Paul

 

[CurtC]

He did? Where is the scan of his birth certificate? I haven't actually seen it.

The scan of McCain's certificate has been discussed here before, so a search should turn it up, but many of us here have seen it (the scanned image anyway).

If someone had needed my birth certificate a year and a half ago, they would get to see a piece of paper I got from the county clerk's office several years back which is basically equivalent to the form Obama has. It says I was born in Cherokee County, Texas, and the date, etc., but it's not a scan of an original.

Last year when my father died, I found in his effects an actual certificate from 1961 when I was born, with a gold seal on the front and baby footprints on the back. I guess the county clerk has something like this on file, and they issue the paper certificate when someone requests one, but they don't release the original nor scan it.

Apparently John McCain still had his original from when he was born, and Obama didn't, so provided the updated certificate issued by Hawaii.

 

[jadebox]

Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401] The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:


(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;


(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;


(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;


(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;


(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;


(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;



(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act (59 Stat. 669; 22 U.S.C. 288) by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and


(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States. 302 persons born in Puerto Rico on or after April 11, 1899

 

[Yoink]

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years:

Hmmm, that's interesting. So even if Obama had been born in Kenya he would qualify as a citizen-by-birth under current law (though not under the law as it was formulated at the time he was born).

So two questions come immediately to my mind: 1) if I was born in 1960 outside America to an American parent and a foreign parent and I apply for an American passport do they apply the law as it stood at the time of my birth or as it stands now?

2) How does any of this apply to the constitution's "natural born citizen" provision? The constitution provides no definition of that term. The only "plain language" meaning I can give it is "citizen by virtue of birthright." That is, if your citizenship is a result of "who you were born to" rather than a result of service to the state or residency or anything else then you are a "natural born citizen." I'd have thought that that would rule in the foreign-born person in (1) above if current law is the controlling law.

ETA: to be very clear (for the sake of the small-brained birthers among us); none of this is remotely relevant to the case of Barack Obama, because he was born in Honolulu and there is simply no question whatsoever about his status as a "natural born citizen" of the USA.

 

[Arus808]

Yes it has been produced. Hawaii only provides a Certification of Live Birth - has been using only that version since the 60's.

Dont even try to wave that fact away, since
1)IM from Hawaii
2) I have a Certification of Live Birth
3) This is the only type of certificate given by the State of Hawaii by the Department of Health. My copies come from 1976 and from 2006 (yes I have two, I misplaced the one my parents obtained in 1976 - and subsequently found it after a move)

The certification of live birth (AKA short form) is legal to to obtain:
Driver License
Passport (of all things, this is the most important)
Get a Job (tax filings)
Establish citizenship.

I did all of the above with my COLB.




Yes, its practically the same thing. NOT all states call their "birth certificates" that. Hawaii uses the term Certification of Live Birth. The only other term they use was Certificate of Birth, which is the only words that could fit on a 1 3/4" x 2 1/2" card that duplicates the information found on the COLB which they stopped giving out in 80's


Want to challenge that. I was born in Hawaii, so you have a huge uphill battle to prove me wrong.

Questions skipped by boyntonstu. He wants to bring up the conspiracy around a Hawaii Birth Certificate, then he must go head to head with someone who was born in Hawaii.

 

[headscratcher4]

1) if I was born in 1960 outside America to an American parent and a foreign parent and I apply for an American passport do they apply the law as it stood at the time of my birth or as it stands now?
.

I believe the answer to this question depends on the length of attachment of the parent that was a citizen to the US. As I understand it, the claim is that Anne Obama (had she born Obama overseas) while a citizen had not lived in the US long enough to convey that citizenship. It is a technicality that the birthers have climbed all over...but it is pretty meaningless in that there is NO evidence that she ever left the United States prior to Obama's birth and certainly not to give birth to Obama in Mombassa.

 

[Arus808]

could u show us a copy with the private info whited out?

ETA: funny thing, My birth record wasn't received into the Dept of Health for a full 13 days. Longer than Obama's one.

 

[Hokulele]

ETA: funny thing, My birth record wasn't received into the Dept of Health for a full 13 days. Longer than Obama's one.

Fake! At the very bottom it says "Any Alterations Invalidate This Certificate". You have clearly altered it, so it doesn't count. Plus, I don't see the word "Kenya" on it anywhere.

Nice try, but I'm not falling for it.

 

[Lurker]

The USA has had liberal Presidents before. That's nothing new. But the reaction to Obama is very..very different then the reaction to Carter or Clinton.

I disagree. right wingers came up with similar styled conspiracy theories about Clinton and they made it on major TV news.

1. Clinton had Foster murdered
2. Clinton ran a cocaine operation out of Mena
3. Clinton death lists

You get the idea. Birtherism isn't any crazier than the above three I listed.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

I disagree. right wingers came up with similar styled conspiracy theories about Clinton and they made it on major TV news.

1. Clinton had Foster murdered
2. Clinton ran a cocaine operation out of Mena
3. Clinton death lists

You get the idea. Birtherism isn't any crazier than the above three I listed.

Don't forget the Juanita Broderick "rape" accusation.

 

[Arus808]

Fake! At the very bottom it says "Any Alterations Invalidate This Certificate". You have clearly altered it, so it doesn't count. Plus, I don't see the word "Kenya" on it anywhere.

Nice try, but I'm not falling for it.

hahah...yeah...its not official...now...

i tried to get the embossed seal to show up, but the scanner couldn't pick up the indentations made by the seal. Im sure if you play around with the levels, you'll get a hint of where its located.

 

[Brainster]

Hmmm, that's interesting. So even if Obama had been born in Kenya he would qualify as a citizen-by-birth under current law (though not under the law as it was formulated at the time he was born).

So two questions come immediately to my mind: 1) if I was born in 1960 outside America to an American parent and a foreign parent and I apply for an American passport do they apply the law as it stood at the time of my birth or as it stands now?

Neither. They apply the decision to give you an American passport based on your citizenship, which is not based on whether you are a natural-born citizen or not. There are plenty of foreign-born American citizens who are not natural-born citizens and some (John McCain and I for two) who are foreign-born but still natural-born. As far as I know the only difference between being foreign-born and natural-born is eligibility for the presidency. It mattered in McCain's case; mine, not so much.

If you are stipulating that there is a continuing question about your citizenship, because, for example, you have never lived in the United States, then the law would be based on your birth date; otherwise why would every website on the matter break it down that way?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

It turns out, that I do NOT have a "Birth Certificate". I instead have a "Certificate of Birth". And it was issued 3 days after I was supposedly born.

I guess this means I was really born in Kenya.

It also follows that you must be an atheist Muslim too.

 

[Yoink]

Neither. They apply the decision to give you an American passport based on your citizenship, which is not based on whether you are a natural-born citizen or not. There are plenty of foreign-born American citizens who are not natural-born citizens and some (John McCain and I for two) who are foreign-born but still natural-born. As far as I know the only difference between being foreign-born and natural-born is eligibility for the presidency. It mattered in McCain's case; mine, not so much.

If you are stipulating that there is a continuing question about your citizenship, because, for example, you have never lived in the United States, then the law would be based on your birth date; otherwise why would every website on the matter break it down that way?

Sorry, you misread the question. I wasn't asking "are you a natural born citizen" I was asking "are you granted citizenship." The law at the time of Obama's birth would have ruled him ineligible for citizenship had he been born outside of the US (his mother would not have met the "residence in the United States" requirements). It appears that under current law, however, a child born to a US woman and a non-US man outside the US when the woman was the same age as Obama's mother at the time of his birth would be regarded as a US citizen. So my question (leaving the whole "what does natural born mean" question entirely to one side) is what citizenship law is applied to someone born in the same year as Obama: the law that prevailed at the time of birth or the current law?

 

[Upchurch]

The scan of McCain's certificate has been discussed here before, so a search should turn it up, but many of us here have seen it (the scanned image anyway).

Was it "long form" or otherwise significantly different from Obama's?

 

[Juniversal]

Had they done that though, we could simply point out that not all people with the name "Hussein" are bad, and point out that "Hussein" means "good, small, handsome one" (Source) and not "evil dictator", and that judging a man on the basis of his name clearly means that we will have to forever judge every man named Adolf or Timothy or Ted (McVeigh and Bundy, for those of you who might not get the references) as evil murderers or proponents of genocide.

Indeed. If that was the case then little Adolf Hitler Campbell is destined for a life of destruction (it MIGHT be true that he's destined to be a racist on the basis of his parents though) .

I disagree. right wingers came up with similar styled conspiracy theories about Clinton and they made it on major TV news.

1. Clinton had Foster murdered
2. Clinton ran a cocaine operation out of Mena
3. Clinton death lists

You get the idea. Birtherism isn't any crazier than the above three I listed.

Crazier? No. But are the individuals who promote the theory more fanatical? I would say definitely, yes.

 

[Thunder]

* A child born in the US is a citizen. .

does this include citizens of another country on vacation in the USA, who happen to go into labor?

the purpose of the "birth" clause was to ensure that all slaves born in the USA would become citizens.

 

[dropzone]

Yes. twinstead, the master of the rhetorical question

So, it's too late, 26 hours later, to make the same point without you blowing that geegaw all over me?

 

[Travis]

Was it "long form" or otherwise significantly different from Obama's?

Here it is. The circles are from when we were trying to see what the faded text said. Note it says "certificate of live birth" as well.

 

[CptColumbo]

no...of course not. there is NO way his skin color has anything to do with their obsessions with proving he is not an American.

clearly, this is about the issues.

I don't know.

As far as I know Martin Van Buren didn't have to put up with this kind of crap.