Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[Gord_in_Toronto]

boyntonstu, instead of just JAQing off all over this thread, how about answering a few questions?

Is there any reason to think that Obama might not be a natural born citizen of the US? Is there any document or testimony to that effect that has not already been thoroughly debunked?

Why sure Mr Upchurch. They are busy Photoshopping^TM them as we speak.

 

[Meadmaker]

$1,000,000 and lawyers for what??????

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you are relatively new here. A lot of us who admire the work of James Randi started out on a very different path. We were investigating all that stuff that was being ignored or covered up. I was a JFK assassination buff myself, and I also was sure that scientists were closed minded people who were way too dismissive of all the evidence for psychic powers.

However, unlike many with similar notions, I was genuinely curious and so I looked into things, and found that the world of conspiracy theories and psychics were full of lies, half truths, distortions, and delusion. Some of it was sincere but absurd. Some was outright fraud.

So, with the possibility that you haven't encountered this sort of thing before, I will assume that you don't know what to look for to see when you are dealing with kooks and/or frauds.

You asked why Obama has spent a million bucks to avoid releasing his birth certificate. After all, no one in their right mind would fritter away a million bucks unless there was some darned good cause.* That's the statement I'll focus on, since it illustrates beautifully the ways of the world of the frauds, con men, and crazies found in this arena.

The statement has a couple of parts. First, there's the assertion that Obama spent a million bucks in legal fees related to the lawsuits surrounding his birth records. Is that really true? Follow the links in your own article. You'll get to here.


"As WND reported, Robert Bauer of Perkins Coie – top lawyer for Obama, Obama's presidential campaign, the Democratic National Committee and Obama's Organizing for America – is the same Washington, D.C., lawyer defending President Obama in lawsuits challenging his eligibility to be president."

Earlier in the article, it was noted that Perkins Cole had received 1.4 million bucks from Obama and/or his campaign or related organizations.

So, where's that 1 million dollars to defend against the birther lawsuits? It isn't there. No, it isn't. It says that Obama and co. payed a 1.4 million to Perkins Cole. It says a lawyer defended Obama against the birther lawsuits. It doesn't say that Obama has spent 1 million bucks defending himself against birther lawsuits. (For comparison: I spent 65 dollars at the grocery store yesterday. I bought chicken at the grocery store yesterday. How much did I spend on chicken at the grocery story yesterday? Why did I need so much chicken?)

It's a classis way the frauds distort reality. Sadly, though, Obama has certainly spent a great deal defending against the lawsuits. It's a pity he has to, but it goes with the territory these days. He can't take the time to show up in court himself. He has to send lawyers. He doesn't use guys he finds in the yellow pages, so this idiocy has probably cost him a pretty penny. Fortunately for him, he's mostly using other peoples' money. Unfortunately for us, he, and every other politician in a similar situation, ends up owing favors to the people, or special interest groups, who raised that money for them.

But, one might ask, why did he spend any money at all? Why not just release the records? Another classic case of distortion. Let us imagine that you wanted to prove that you were born in a certain place at a certain time? Assume that this was in the United States. You would begin by producing your birth certificate. However, what if you had no birth certificate? You would replace it. How would you do that?

You would write to the the appropriate authority, probably a state or county official, who maintained the records. They would look in their records and verify that there was a record of a live birth at the place and time with the name issued just as you suggested. Would they then give you the records? Of course not. Those records don't belong to you. They belong to the state. Instead, they would issue a piece of paper that certified that they did indeed look up those records and that there was a record of that live birth at that place and time. Such a paper is called a "birth certificate".

Neither you nor the President can "release the records". Neither he nor you have access to them, nor do either of you have the authority to tell the people who have them to give them to someone else. That's not how it works. They have the records. They keep the records. They "certify" the existence of those records with a "certificate".

There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about Obama's case. The state has released exactly what they would release for any other citizen. No more. No less. The only difference is that in Obama's case, they have talked about it more than they normally would.

Typical conspiracy stuff. By the way, among people writing about this stuff, some of them are deluded and sincerely believe that there is something to all of this nonsense. Others are frauds trying to sell books or advertising on their web sites, or identify deluded individuals who might be marks for further, more lucrative, fraud. Takes all kinds to make a woo.

*but of course, thousands of psychics leave a million dollars on the table every day by turning down James Randi's challenge

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Why? Please explain this outrageous expense.


…….Complicating the situation is Obama's decision to spend sums estimated at more than $1 million to avoid releasing a state birth certificate that would put to rest the questions.

Yeah, right.

And if only NASA and the Gummint would release their secret documents it would forever put the UFO/space aliens nutjobbers to rest.

Sure it would.

Also, I doubt this thing has cost Obama $1,000,000.

I don't know, but I would guess the POTUS ordinarily keeps a law staff on retainer to handle these sorts of things (and any other personal legal work needed). Perhaps *that* total operation costs a million, but it's not devoted just to a Birther lawsuit.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Well done, Meadmaker. Especially this bit:

The statement has a couple of parts. First, there's the assertion that Obama spent a million bucks in legal fees related to the lawsuits surrounding his birth records. Is that really true? Follow the links in your own article. You'll get to here.


"As WND reported, Robert Bauer of Perkins Coie – top lawyer for Obama, Obama's presidential campaign, the Democratic National Committee and Obama's Organizing for America – is the same Washington, D.C., lawyer defending President Obama in lawsuits challenging his eligibility to be president."

Earlier in the article, it was noted that Perkins Cole had received 1.4 million bucks from Obama and/or his campaign or related organizations.

So, where's that 1 million dollars to defend against the birther lawsuits? It isn't there. No, it isn't. It says that Obama and co. payed a 1.4 million to Perkins Cole. It says a lawyer defended Obama against the birther lawsuits. It doesn't say that Obama has spent 1 million bucks defending himself against birther lawsuits. (For comparison: I spent 65 dollars at the grocery store yesterday. I bought chicken at the grocery store yesterday. How much did I spend on chicken at the grocery story yesterday? Why did I need so much chicken?)

Also did you notice the way his claim went from Obama spent $1,000,000 on this case to "$1,000,000 and lawyers"?

 

[boyntonstu]

Types of certified copies issued
Long forms, also known as certified photocopies, book copies, and photostat copies, are exact photocopies of the original birth record that was prepared by the hospital or attending physician at the time of the child's birth.[7] The long form usually includes parents' information (address of residence, race, birth place, date of birth, etc.), additional information on the child's birthplace, and information on the doctors who assisted in the birth of the child. The long form also usually includes the signature of the doctor involved and at least one of the parents.[8]

Long forms may become obsolete in years to come, as many states have begun to use Electronic Birth Registration systems.[9] The use of these systems will enable information typically seen on certified copies (long forms) to be available in computer databases that typically issue short form certificates, thus eliminating the need for "hard copy" long form certificates and having all birth information stored in computer databases only. This benefits parents in many ways; registration can be completed via computer at the hospital, meaning that parents can stop by their Vital Statistics office on the way home from the hospital to purchase the birth certificate instantly.[10] It also means that the extra cost for long form certificates will no longer be a factor.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_certificate

Edited by Locknar: 

Please provide appropriate reference for quoted material.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

they are the same thing, my friend.

Indeed.

Last time I renewed my driver's license, the state license office said that Homeland Security is requiring us to present a birth certificate this time around. The photocopy I already had wasn't good, so I had to get a certified copy from City Hall (or from the state Department of Health and Senior Services). The heading on my birth certificate was "Certificate of Live Birth".

The requirement for a "birth certificate" was fulfilled by this document.

 

[Upchurch]

Types of certified copies issued {snip}

It is usually courteous to cite the page you copy and paste from.

We all know that the long form and certificate of live birth are two different things. The point is that, legally speaking, they are the same thing.

So, is there a particular reason you would like this obscure form of birth certificate? Is there any actual reason that it would convince you when all other evidence could not?

 

[Dancing David]

Why? Please explain this outrageous expense.


…….Complicating the situation is Obama's decision to spend sums estimated at more than $1 million to avoid releasing a state birth certificate that would put to rest the questions.

WND has reported that among the documentation not yet available for Obama includes his kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, medical records, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and adoption records.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=110114




Is a fool someone who spends $1,000,000 for no reason?

Are you really quoting World News Daily!



Even better you are referencing an article by Camille Paglia!

Most embarrassing vote: Bill Clinton the second time around. Because he did not honorably resign when the Lewinsky scandal broke and instead tied up the country and paralyzed the government for two years, leading directly to our blindsiding by 9/11.

http://reason.com/archives/2004/11/01/whos-getting-your-vote/8

 

[fullflavormenthol]

I was born in LA, and I have a certificate of live birth; they are the same document. I got a license with it, I got a passport with it, and I got a job with it.

This crap belongs in the CT section. The President is a citizen, natural born and the overwhelming evidence supports this case.

Types of certified copies issued
Long forms, also known as certified photocopies, book copies, and photostat copies, are exact photocopies of the original birth record that was prepared by the hospital or attending physician at the time of the child's birth.[7] The long form usually includes parents' information (address of residence, race, birth place, date of birth, etc.), additional information on the child's birthplace, and information on the doctors who assisted in the birth of the child. The long form also usually includes the signature of the doctor involved and at least one of the parents.[8]

I went ahead and bolded the part that is incorrect for you.

A long form will contain information like the hospital, where the parents were born and their ages; and not a whole hell of a lot else. They are not photocopies or exact copies, and now they are simply printed from a computer like the short forms.

OH...Hawaii doesn't even issue a long form.

 

[Thunder]

Types of certified copies issued
Long forms, also known as certified photocopies, book copies, and photostat copies, are exact photocopies of the original birth record that was prepared by the hospital or attending physician at the time of the child's birth.[7] The long form usually includes parents' information (address of residence, race, birth place, date of birth, etc.), additional information on the child's birthplace, and information on the doctors who assisted in the birth of the child. The long form also usually includes the signature of the doctor involved and at least one of the parents.[8]

Long forms may become obsolete in years to come, as many states have begun to use Electronic Birth Registration systems.[9] The use of these systems will enable information typically seen on certified copies (long forms) to be available in computer databases that typically issue short form certificates, thus eliminating the need for "hard copy" long form certificates and having all birth information stored in computer databases only. This benefits parents in many ways; registration can be completed via computer at the hospital, meaning that parents can stop by their Vital Statistics office on the way home from the hospital to purchase the birth certificate instantly.[10] It also means that the extra cost for long form certificates will no longer be a factor.

do you understand how STUPID this all is? do you have any concept of that?

 

[Dancing David]

Types of certified copies issued
Long forms, also known as certified photocopies, book copies, and photostat copies, are exact photocopies of the original birth record that was prepared by the hospital or attending physician at the time of the child's birth.[7] The long form usually includes parents' information (address of residence, race, birth place, date of birth, etc.), additional information on the child's birthplace, and information on the doctors who assisted in the birth of the child. The long form also usually includes the signature of the doctor involved and at least one of the parents.[8]

Long forms may become obsolete in years to come, as many states have begun to use Electronic Birth Registration systems.[9] The use of these systems will enable information typically seen on certified copies (long forms) to be available in computer databases that typically issue short form certificates, thus eliminating the need for "hard copy" long form certificates and having all birth information stored in computer databases only. This benefits parents in many ways; registration can be completed via computer at the hospital, meaning that parents can stop by their Vital Statistics office on the way home from the hospital to purchase the birth certificate instantly.[10] It also means that the extra cost for long form certificates will no longer be a factor.

Um, long forms are already obsolete. My wife and my son both (she born in 1972, he in 1992) , if you request a copy of their birth cerufucate, what will you get a 'record of live birth' and a computer print out amazingly like the one the POTUS has.

the long form is not required to get a passport orr a security clearance.

False issue.

 

[Dancing David]

boyntonstu, instead of just JAQing off all over this thread, how about answering a few questions?

Is there any reason to think that Obama might not be a natural born citizen of the US? Is there any document or testimony to that effect that has not already been thoroughly debunked?

Well, now that you have Upchurched the thread... Ziggy

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Um, long forms are already obsolete. My wife and my son both (she born in 1972, he in 1992) , if you request a copy of their birth cerufucate, what will you get a 'record of live birth' and a computer print out amazingly like the one the POTUS has.

the long form is not required to get a passport orr a security clearance.

False issue.

Exactly. I have a long form COLB, and all it has is a little more information that is completely useless. No one needs to know my parents birth place and age. Many states are getting rid of them because all the added information is pointless and only a short form is needed for all federal standards.

 

[Upchurch]

OH...Hawaii doesn't even issue a long form.

...anymore. Not since 2001.

"At that time, all information for births from 1908 (on) was put into electronic files for consistent reporting," she said.

Information about births is transferred electronically from hospitals to the department.

"The electronic record of the birth is what (the Health Department) now keeps on file in order to provide same-day certified copies at our help window for most requests," Okubo said.

Asked for more information about the short-form versus long-form birth documents, Okubo said the Health Department "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate."

"The birth certificate form has been modified over the years and decades to conform to national standards and models," she said.

Okubo also emphasized the certification form "contains all the information needed by all federal government agencies for transactions requiring a birth certificate."

Obama couldn't produce a "long form" certificate if he wanted to.

 

[Juniversal]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you are relatively new here. A lot of us who admire the work of James Randi started out on a very different path. We were investigating all that stuff that was being ignored or covered up. I was a JFK assassination buff myself, and I also was sure that scientists were closed minded people who were way too dismissive of all the evidence for psychic powers.

However, unlike many with similar notions, I was genuinely curious and so I looked into things, and found that the world of conspiracy theories and psychics were full of lies, half truths, distortions, and delusion. Some of it was sincere but absurd. Some was outright fraud.

So, with the possibility that you haven't encountered this sort of thing before, I will assume that you don't know what to look for to see when you are dealing with kooks and/or frauds.

You asked why Obama has spent a million bucks to avoid releasing his birth certificate. After all, no one in their right mind would fritter away a million bucks unless there was some darned good cause.* That's the statement I'll focus on, since it illustrates beautifully the ways of the world of the frauds, con men, and crazies found in this arena.

The statement has a couple of parts. First, there's the assertion that Obama spent a million bucks in legal fees related to the lawsuits surrounding his birth records. Is that really true? Follow the links in your own article. You'll get to here.


"As WND reported, Robert Bauer of Perkins Coie – top lawyer for Obama, Obama's presidential campaign, the Democratic National Committee and Obama's Organizing for America – is the same Washington, D.C., lawyer defending President Obama in lawsuits challenging his eligibility to be president."

Earlier in the article, it was noted that Perkins Cole had received 1.4 million bucks from Obama and/or his campaign or related organizations.

So, where's that 1 million dollars to defend against the birther lawsuits? It isn't there. No, it isn't. It says that Obama and co. payed a 1.4 million to Perkins Cole. It says a lawyer defended Obama against the birther lawsuits. It doesn't say that Obama has spent 1 million bucks defending himself against birther lawsuits. (For comparison: I spent 65 dollars at the grocery store yesterday. I bought chicken at the grocery store yesterday. How much did I spend on chicken at the grocery story yesterday? Why did I need so much chicken?)

It's a classis way the frauds distort reality. Sadly, though, Obama has certainly spent a great deal defending against the lawsuits. It's a pity he has to, but it goes with the territory these days. He can't take the time to show up in court himself. He has to send lawyers. He doesn't use guys he finds in the yellow pages, so this idiocy has probably cost him a pretty penny. Fortunately for him, he's mostly using other peoples' money. Unfortunately for us, he, and every other politician in a similar situation, ends up owing favors to the people, or special interest groups, who raised that money for them.

But, one might ask, why did he spend any money at all? Why not just release the records? Another classic case of distortion. Let us imagine that you wanted to prove that you were born in a certain place at a certain time? Assume that this was in the United States. You would begin by producing your birth certificate. However, what if you had no birth certificate? You would replace it. How would you do that?

You would write to the the appropriate authority, probably a state or county official, who maintained the records. They would look in their records and verify that there was a record of a live birth at the place and time with the name issued just as you suggested. Would they then give you the records? Of course not. Those records don't belong to you. They belong to the state. Instead, they would issue a piece of paper that certified that they did indeed look up those records and that there was a record of that live birth at that place and time. Such a paper is called a "birth certificate".

Neither you nor the President can "release the records". Neither he nor you have access to them, nor do either of you have the authority to tell the people who have them to give them to someone else. That's not how it works. They have the records. They keep the records. They "certify" the existence of those records with a "certificate".

There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about Obama's case. The state has released exactly what they would release for any other citizen. No more. No less. The only difference is that in Obama's case, they have talked about it more than they normally would.

Typical conspiracy stuff. By the way, among people writing about this stuff, some of them are deluded and sincerely believe that there is something to all of this nonsense. Others are frauds trying to sell books or advertising on their web sites, or identify deluded individuals who might be marks for further, more lucrative, fraud. Takes all kinds to make a woo.

*but of course, thousands of psychics leave a million dollars on the table every day by turning down James Randi's challenge

Good post.

 

[Juniversal]

Types of certified copies issued
Long forms, also known as certified photocopies, book copies, and photostat copies, are exact photocopies of the original birth record that was prepared by the hospital or attending physician at the time of the child's birth.[7] The long form usually includes parents' information (address of residence, race, birth place, date of birth, etc.), additional information on the child's birthplace, and information on the doctors who assisted in the birth of the child. The long form also usually includes the signature of the doctor involved and at least one of the parents.[8]

Long forms may become obsolete in years to come, as many states have begun to use Electronic Birth Registration systems.[9] The use of these systems will enable information typically seen on certified copies (long forms) to be available in computer databases that typically issue short form certificates, thus eliminating the need for "hard copy" long form certificates and having all birth information stored in computer databases only. This benefits parents in many ways; registration can be completed via computer at the hospital, meaning that parents can stop by their Vital Statistics office on the way home from the hospital to purchase the birth certificate instantly.[10] It also means that the extra cost for long form certificates will no longer be a factor.

I missed the part that concluded that the Certificate of live birth was any less "official" then the long form. Did I miss something??

 

[Meadmaker]

Types of certified copies issued
Long forms,

Can you tell me how I would go about getting my "long form" birth certificate? When I wanted a certified copy of my birth certificate, I wrote to the county of my birth (in Colorado) and asked for one. I can't recall what else I was required to provide. I do know that the form didn't have any options for "long form" or "short form" copies.

That was in 1998, by the way. I then proceeded to use that "short form" copy to get not one, but two, passports. I got one from the United States, and one from Ireland. If I ever run for Taoiseach, I'll bet there will be one heck of a ruckus about my citizenship, but it's quite perfectly legitimate.

 

[MattusMaximus]

How appropriate is it that the lawyer for the Birthers is named Kreep?

Wins thread

 

[Arus808]

Do you have any proof that a valid Birth Certificate was produced?

Yes it has been produced. Hawaii only provides a Certification of Live Birth - has been using only that version since the 60's.

Dont even try to wave that fact away, since
1)IM from Hawaii
2) I have a Certification of Live Birth
3) This is the only type of certificate given by the State of Hawaii by the Department of Health. My copies come from 1976 and from 2006 (yes I have two, I misplaced the one my parents obtained in 1976 - and subsequently found it after a move)

The certification of live birth (AKA short form) is legal to to obtain:
Driver License
Passport (of all things, this is the most important)
Get a Job (tax filings)
Establish citizenship.

I did all of the above with my COLB.

Do you know the difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate"?

Yes, its practically the same thing. NOT all states call their "birth certificates" that. Hawaii uses the term Certification of Live Birth. The only other term they use was Certificate of Birth, which is the only words that could fit on a 1 3/4" x 2 1/2" card that duplicates the information found on the COLB which they stopped giving out in 80's


Want to challenge that. I was born in Hawaii, so you have a huge uphill battle to prove me wrong.

Why are Obama's attorneys objecting to the production of the requested document?

They aren't doing that. They are fighting frivolous lawsuits that are asking for private information to be revealed.

 

[uk_dave]

$1,000,000 and lawyers for what??????

Just to piss you off.

Money well spent