9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Jontg]

@headscratcher4 - Thing is, people like him do us a disservice by using ad hominem against the Nazis when simple facts and a sprinkling of invective work just as well. It's one thing to say "You are wrong, and you are a Nazi scumbag." It's another entirely to say "You are wrong because you are a Nazi scumbag." On this thread and others, Bigjelmapro tries to use the word itself as a weapon, trying to affix it to anyone who disagrees with him on the slimmest of pretenses and believing that that alone discredits both arguer and argument. That's a basic logical fallacy and only makes us all look bad--which is something considering that we're debating Holocaust deniers. Like all conspiraloons, their favorite tactic is to cast us as dogmatic True Believers who browbeat the poor, brave Nazi dissidents because we value ideology more than the truth--and lashing out in this manner, not only at the Nazis but at any non-Zionist in the room, makes them look better than anyone who admires Hitler has a right to look.
@bigjelmapro - No, a ridiculous statement is that anyone who calls you out on your abuses is just a big meanie who hates Jews, and you know he is because he denied it.
@Simon - Veiled implications? I'll never understand this whole level-headed understatement bit you have; it's just no fun.

 

[Simon39759]

Understood...but it is also part of the pattern in these exersizes in denile therapy with neo-Nazis. For example, our other new friend, JMH423. (Snipped here for your viewing pleasure; remember my friends, to spay or neuter your quotes.)

Well; here is the thing.
We have some people on these boards that I consider obvious Nazi (or Nazi fan boy). It might be against the board policy to give names but, heh, just look at the thread's title.
JMH... JMH is quite suspicious to me right now. I am still giving him the benefit of the doubt, but mostly because, if he really is a Nazi, I'll expect him to dig himself deeper and make his bigotry clear shortly.

As for other people, for example Jontg; I have not yet see anything that suggests he is one of the scumbags. I don't agree with him and think his condemnation of Israel's policy is a bit too strident; but I have no reason to believe that it is due to him being an anti-semite. There is plenty, in my opinion, to objectively disagree with in what Israel is doing or as done.

@Simon - Veiled implications? I'll never understand this whole level-headed understatement bit you have; it's just no fun.

Thank you.
I try to be intellectually honest and objective. I also try to give people the benefit of the doubt. It might not be as fun as calling people gay Nazi terrorists but sooner or later, somebody else will do it for me. I treat flame war as a spectator sport, I guess.

 

[dudalb]

It is also..."I don't really know much about it but...." Followed by a download of predictable denier sites and assertions that demonstrate full well that more than a little "research" has been done and conclusions been drawn. NeoNazi scum.

In the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory section we have a term "JAQing off" because so many Truthers start out when they first post saying "I an not a Conspriacy Theorist, but I have A few questions about 9/11" and then start peddling the usual Truther BS. When challenged on this, they reply "I'm Just Asking Questions" .This happens so often the term "Just Asking Questions " or JAQ was termed for this pathetic attempt at disguise. It's no surprise the Holocaust deniers use the same lame tactics.

 

[Jontg]

Thank you to you, Simon; I'll try to keep you entertained.

 

[headscratcher4]

Well; here is the thing.
We have some people on these boards that I consider obvious Nazi (or Nazi fan boy). It might be against the board policy to give names but, heh, just look at the thread's title.
JMH... JMH is quite suspicious to me right now. I am still giving him the benefit of the doubt, but mostly because, if he really is a Nazi, I'll expect him to dig himself deeper and make his bigotry clear shortly.

As for other people, for example Jontg; I have not yet see anything that suggests he is one of the scumbags. I don't agree with him and think his condemnation of Israel's policy is a bit too strident; but I have no reason to believe that it is due to him being an anti-semite. There is plenty, in my opinion, to objectively disagree with in what Israel is doing or as done.

I think that is a fair balance and appreciate your making it...

 

[headscratcher4]

@headscratcher4 - Thing is, people like him do us a disservice by using ad hominem against the Nazis when simple facts and a sprinkling of invective work just as well. It's one thing to say "You are wrong, and you are a Nazi scumbag." It's another entirely to say "You are wrong because you are a Nazi scumbag." On this thread and others, Bigjelmapro tries to use the word itself as a weapon, trying to affix it to anyone who disagrees with him on the slimmest of pretenses and believing that that alone discredits both arguer and argument. That's a basic logical fallacy and only makes us all look bad--which is something considering that we're debating Holocaust deniers. Like all conspiraloons, their favorite tactic is to cast us as dogmatic True Believers who browbeat the poor, brave Nazi dissidents because we value ideology more than the truth--and lashing out in this manner, not only at the Nazis but at any non-Zionist in the room, makes them look better than anyone who admires Hitler has a right to look.
@bigjelmapro - No, a ridiculous statement is that anyone who calls you out on your abuses is just a big meanie who hates Jews, and you know he is because he denied it.
@Simon - Veiled implications? I'll never understand this whole level-headed understatement bit you have; it's just no fun.

Was I, in your opinion, unfair to JMH? Just wondering.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Google Search:"What The Holocaust
Debate Is Really About
Terrell E. Arnold
3-2-9

Informative article that might clear up some misunderstanding about what you percieve as Holocaust Denial...

You went from "I don't really know much about it" to "clearing up [others'] misunderstandings" of the subject pretty quick.

Congratulations on going from absolute novice to lecturing expert in record time.

 

[cisco]

Why is it that people who deny the holocaust always have other reasons for wanting to do so? You never hear "damn that fascist bastard Hitler and his imperialistic ways! Damn national socialism! Damn neo-nazis and racists! But the facts show that the holocaust didn't happen." I've never once heard that.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Why is it that people who deny the holocaust always have other reasons for wanting to do so? You never hear "damn that fascist bastard Hitler and his imperialistic ways! Damn national socialism! Damn neo-nazis and racists! But the facts show that the holocaust didn't happen." I've never once heard that.

Some do, but it's always accompanied with the equivocation that the Allies were just as bad or worse.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Frankly, you're a disgusting human being. The fact that you continue to use derogetory terms like "the bunnycaust" shows that you are not only completely closed to the possibility that it happened but also that you are utterly apathetic and even mocking the pain and suffering caused by those who suffered in it.

And your burden of proof, independant investigators, is the most ridiculous and ****ing stupid thing I have ever heard in my life. If you're going to covertly commit murder the last thing you're gonna do it call the god damned press! Why, on what ****ing planet, would the Nazis ever think of contacting independant investigators to autopsy the dead before they burned or buried them? How stupid are you man?

I am very sorry to hear that Parky, but that's the issue we are debatting here: how they got killed and how many. Here is a summary of all registered deaths as documented by the Germans themselves and maintained by the ICRC:

That's funny, the ICRC has repeatedly stated that they had absolutely nothing to do with the deathtoll. As a matter of fact, here is a document from the ITS stating that they and the ICRC have no record of death tolls.

Most Jews had left Germany before the deportations started. A couple of thousand Jews lived in Palestine before 1940. How many now. 6 million? Where do they come from? How many went to the US. Think of this final scene in Schindlers List about this reunion of many Jews in the US. That's where they went.

But this is all diversions: where are the independent reports of autopsies of gassed people?

I have a better question, explain where they all went. There is still, on record, a massive dip in the population of Jews following WWII. And please, throw the same fallacy the other Neo-Nazis have thrown at me. Really, I'm begging you to let me tear the throat out of your entire argument.

I was talking about ethnic continuity of the group, not about individuals. Yes, many Jews were victims (Anne Frank) but many different Jews were also perpetrators within the Bolshevik system. Think of Trotzky, Kaganovich or Yagoda. They were responsible for the death of millions.

Which has something to do with anything because...

These gas chambers were used to kill lice in the clothes of the camp inmates. Not only the Germans but also the Japanese and Americans used these kind of facilities. They were intended to save lives.

Which explains why so many died of typhus. Because the Germans were just oh-so-concerned with the well being of Jewish prisoners right?

Comes Fred Leuchter. He was the number one American gas chamber expert. He had constructed gas chambers for the American government as a way to execute criminals. He was the one who travelled to auschwitz to take some samples from the walls that suposedly had been gas chamers to kill humans.

Result: no traces of cyanide whatsoever.

Fred Leuchter is a fraud if there ever was one. For one thing the Auschwitz chambers were blown all to hell before the allies captured them. Before that jackass did his test the cyanide residue would have been exposed to the elements for over 50 years. And even then an actual scholar, director of the Forensic Institute of Cracow, Jan Markiewicz, redid the test using microdiffusion techniques and subsequently found trace elements of cyanide in both the delousing chamber and the gas chamber used for executions. This is the result when real scientists use real science.

 

[Simon39759]

You went from "I don't really know much about it" to "clearing up [others'] misunderstandings" of the subject pretty quick.

Congratulations on going from absolute novice to lecturing expert in record time.

Lol; nice catch and a nice illustration that the initial JAQing off was but mere hypocrisy.

Why is it that people who deny the holocaust always have other reasons for wanting to do so? You never hear "damn that fascist bastard Hitler and his imperialistic ways! Damn national socialism! Damn neo-nazis and racists! But the facts show that the holocaust didn't happen." I've never once heard that.

Well; the explanation would be that the Holocaust did actually happen (not much of a shocker for most) and that there is overwhelming evidences to support it.
Hence, there is no historical reasons to doubt the Holocaust, people that do that will have another reason and an agenda as a Nazi sympathizer is the most common of these 'other reasons'.
Similar to why Evolution deniers are overwhelming Religious fundamentalists (or mislead by them).

Nonetheless, one should mention Paul Rassinier. He is sometime described as the 'father of Holocaust denial' and, as far as I know, was an anti-Nazi.
The reasons of his adopting Holocaust denial are then a bit different, mostly, it seems to me that he was influenced (one would say, mislead) by the Nazi sympathizer Harry Elmer Barnes.

 

[cisco]

Well; the explanation would be that the Holocaust did actually happen (not much of a shocker for most) and that there is overwhelming evidences to support it.
Hence, there is no historical reasons to doubt the Holocaust, people that do that will have another reason and an agenda as a Nazi sympathizer is the most common of these 'other reasons'.
Similar to why Evolution deniers are overwhelming Religious fundamentalists (or mislead by them).

My point exactly.

 

[Jontg]

Was I, in your opinion, unfair to JMH? Just wondering.

Hmm, I don't think so; he really does seem to use his a-lot-of-my-best-pals-are-X protestations as smokescreens for a solid pro-Hitler bent. And as has been noted, he's obviously only pretending to not know what he's talking about. Well, sort of. I guess. Can we really say he's pretending if he only thinks he has a clue in the first place?

 

[woolfe99]

Headscratcher:

I would suggest that you read:

Google:

"The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel"

Written in 1985 by Jack Bernstein

My Farewell to Israel, Thorn of the Middle East



Jack was murdered by Mossad after exercising his freedom of speech regarding the racist, zionist tyrants who control Israel....Is he also an "anti-semite", or "neo-nazi scum"? The anti-zionist movement was originated and is supported today by many Jews...Your thoughts?

Sorry, but there never was such a person "Jack Bernstein." His writings were faked by white supremacist Len Martin. I'm afraid you are not very critical of your sources. There is no source of information for "Bernstein" having been bumped off by the Mossad apart from Martin himself, nor is there any source outside of Martin to even verify his existence. And the writing is so obviously a crude and embarrassing fake that not even the hardcore anti-semites and anti-Zionists take it seriously, which is why it has almost zero play on the viral web. I'm afraid there is little point in taking you seriously now that you have revealed that your source of information is basically the most ludicrous online fringe material that you can possibly find through google. Even Stormfront is a better source than this.

- woolfe

 

[Baylor]

jhm423 is a YouTube truther spam warrior. He spams the most ridiculous of truther claims, like Balsamo's failed 11.2 G physics and Jones's fraudulent "peer-reviewed" paper. It's best for everyone if you just let the troll starve.

 

[headscratcher4]

Sorry, but there never was such a person "Jack Bernstein." His writings were faked by white supremacist Len Martin. I'm afraid you are not very critical of your sources. There is no source of information for "Bernstein" having been bumped off by the Mossad apart from Martin himself, nor is there any source outside of Martin to even verify his existence. And the writing is so obviously a crude and embarrassing fake that not even the hardcore anti-semites and anti-Zionists take it seriously, which is why it has almost zero play on the viral web. I'm afraid there is little point in taking you seriously now that you have revealed that your source of information is basically the most ludicrous online fringe material that you can possibly find through google. Even Stormfront is a better source than this.

- woolfe

Ah, the Leuchter strategy....

 

[headscratcher4]

Hmm, I don't think so; he really does seem to use his a-lot-of-my-best-pals-are-X protestations as smokescreens for a solid pro-Hitler bent. And as has been noted, he's obviously only pretending to not know what he's talking about. Well, sort of. I guess. Can we really say he's pretending if he only thinks he has a clue in the first place?

THank you for your opinion. I feel you are right. I don't usually jump down someone's throat so quickly and accuse them of being an anti-semite and neo-Nazi after their first post, but there were too many warning flags that this guy is a troll and it felt better to call him out ASAP.

 

[dudalb]

jhm423 is a YouTube truther spam warrior. He spams the most ridiculous of truther claims, like Balsamo's failed 11.2 G physics and Jones's fraudulent "peer-reviewed" paper. It's best for everyone if you just let the troll starve.

A demented Truther and a Holocaust Denier. He is batting a thousand on the loony scale.

 

[jmh423]

Headscratcher et al:

There is certainly no justification for whatever it is that Hitlers Nazis did to the Jews, the mentally ill, the gypsys, or any other group that they targeted during their short time in power. Whether they gassed 6 million as the bevy of self claimed experts who seem to live full time on this thread insist, or if they illegally placed ANYONE into forcred labor camps where they died en masse of typhus or starvation as the so called "deniers" claim, there is no excuse for their outrageous and cruel behavior. I am NOT a neo-Nazi, or a supporter of the '30s-'40s German war machine. I never have been a fan or apologist for any cruel imperialistic racist regime. There certainly was no excuse for what the Bolcheviks did to the once heavily Christian nation of Russia either, or their systematic murder of the 50+ million in their reign of terror. They wiped out Christianity in what was once the most Christian nation in the world in 20 years, and as you pointed out a large number of Jewish peasants. What the hell was up with that? I believe that there is factual proof that both of these murderous regimes were bankrolled and supported by the same NY-London-Vatican Banking houses who devised these two murderous regimes for their own profit and power based motives. (wars & the huge usary profits to be made and control of the seats of governmental power throughout Europe) Those pulling the strings in this obvious conspiracy hide behind so called organized Judaism (Rothschilds, Warburgs, Morgans et al, , WASP Protestantism (like the Brit & Dutch Royals) and Catholicism the biggest bilkers, liars, molesters & theives in the world, the Vatican wing...Personally I think all these so called major religions are just huge fronts for the banksters and have NO merit whatsoever...I hope that soon all this religious BS will be exposed for what it is and always has been, and I believe it soon will. Again, I am not a hater of any of the hapless dupes who are indoctrinated into any of these frauds and are too dumb to see through them, be they Jews, Catholics, or Wasps. I am against the perps, not the dupes...Your assesment of who I am is a total delusion. I really like people & try to wake them up...

What is extremely curious is the fact that this is a so called conspiracy thread (I came here because I believe that most world politics, economics, and military actions of the last 300 years are a result of conspiratorial behavior by a small elite group) and on this thread there are several full time so called "debunkers", and hardly any fellow CTs...Seems strange....where do all you self professed experts come from? It has been my experience that there are no debunkers in real life. I have been a CT for years and have NEVER met a debunker in person. Then on the net where they can remain faceless and nameless they crawl out of the woodwork. Are you guys part of some organized movement? Doesn't add up to me...Where are the conspiracy theorists? Cheers

 

[Trojan]

Headscratcher et al:

What is extremely curious is the fact that this is a so called conspiracy thread (I came here because I believe that most world politics, economics, and military actions of the last 300 years are a result of conspiratorial behavior by a small elite group) and on this thread there are several full time so called "debunkers", and hardly any fellow CTs...Seems strange....where do all you self professed experts come from? It has been my experience that there are no debunkers in real life. I have been a CT for years and have NEVER met a debunker in person. Then on the net where they can remain faceless and nameless they crawl out of the woodwork. Are you guys part of some organized movement? Doesn't add up to me...Where are the conspiracy theorists? Cheers

Its been my experience that the conspirators only exist behind closed doors. I've meet on 911 truther so far in real life, and he was dumb as a stump on any specifics.