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Large Hadron Collider feedback needed

Meadmaker has nailed it :)

Btw folks, it's been a couple of more days since the last Tevatron update. That's two more days with ~1 TeV proton-antiproton collisions taking place, and no planet-eating blackholes or strangelets were created to prevent me from typing this sentence.

Carry on... we'll let you know when The End of the WorldTM is imminent :rolleyes:

It's TEOTWAWKI, Matt. (But I feel fine):D

Learn and use the PROPER acronyms!:)

Also good are:

NIMBY
and
BANANA

Cheers,

Dave













The End Of The World As We Know It.
Not In My Back Yard.
Build Absolutely Nothing, Anywhere, Near Anyone.
 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090625141454.htm
When a star explodes in what we call a supernova a large part of the explosion energy is used for accelerating some particles up to extremely high energies”, says Helder. “The energy that is used for particle acceleration is at the expense of heating the gas, which is therefore much colder than theory predicts”.
 
It has been roughly one week since the last Tevatron update on June 9th... that's 5-6 more days that the Tevatron at FermiLab has been operating in the TeV energy range with no ill, black-hole-making, planet-destroying effects.

Meh :rolleyes:


What energy level is that running on now? Compared to the LHC when it first starts up?
 
What energy level is that running on now? Compared to the LHC when it first starts up?

The Tevatron runs at roughly 2 TeV center of mass energy. The LHC in its current state will start soon at a much lower than design energy, I think at 7 TeV.
 
I find it amazing that somone supposedly intelligent enough to be involved with Mensa can't tell the difference between a blog and a forum or work out how to use quotes. However, given that, I find it rather less amazing that said person inisists on continuing to argue with professionals in their field about things he has admitted to having no idea about whatsoever.

I find amazing too.
 
MattusMaximus and Cuddles object to my comment about shutting down current colliders.

I’ll see that and raise you. Let’s up the anty, and talk about firing all current physicists. Get rid of those folks who gave us the A bomb! A conflict of interest for you guys, but not for me! But then some of you might go to work for Ben Laden.

Colliders would be great for Ben Laden. He could destroy the world from the safety of his cave!

As was demonstrated even after I spelled it out before, I need to say THIS IS A JOKE!

Actually, shutting down existing colliders does make some sense. Think about it, honestly. Understanding other positions is an important part of effective debate. But I agree that it is unlikely that the rate of black hole creation would be low enough to make it make sense, and I also (as I said) accept that such a thing is unlikely to be politically feasible. And I do understand the gambler’s fallacy.

Incidentally, I do not “fear” colliders. I have said several times that I think the probability of trouble is low. I would just like to see appropriate management of this issue, with careful and appropriate consideration of various aspects of decision theory including expected value.

I know that this is a difficult issue to manage, with some hard judgments to make. I would just like to see those hard judgments made by what looks like competent judges. If I am not a physicist, you guys are not risk management specialists; none have ever been consulted. And the discussion here (and in some other places) sounds more like a kangaroo court than like competent judgment. I realize that we often have to accept what we can get. The LSAG reports were a lot better than what preceded them, and were not totally incompetent in their judgment aspect. And I more or less accept that the population of the world is voting with their indifference to let the LHC proceed. But I don’t think it is quite over yet. I would like to see appropriate vetting of Plaga, Rossler etc as to whether there is any possibility that they might be right. Some of you guys might actually help with that, if you could approach it with the right attitude. And the final result of public opinion may be less than indifference. It isn’t over until it is over.

Auguste Comte, the founding father of sociology (but they don’t exactly admit it) had a procedure he called “mental health.” It consisted of not reading things he disagreed with. By this standard, physicists appear to have robust mental health. I should practice the same thing, and stop listening to you guys.

I’m outta here, so I may get that chance. See you in a few days, maybe.

Anty? Ben Laden?
 
The Tevatron runs at roughly 2 TeV center of mass energy. The LHC in its current state will start soon at a much lower than design energy, I think at 7 TeV.


Just read that when they are ready to go they will begin att 3,5 TeV.

at what energy levels are the doomsayers afraid that it will start to create black holes?

Is there much difference between 2 and 3,5 in terms of what kind of information they will get from the collisions?
 
Okay I got a couple question.

If a star went supernova at the time the LHC was running at full power, would there be a risk of a black hole combined with the extra radiation reaching us (assuming we did not get a gamma burst, but a star near us supernova'd and it was a couple of times brighter than the moon)?

How quickly could the LHC be throttled down and shut down from when it's running at high power?

Would the head-on collisions that occur in the LHC, be more slow-moving than a cosmic-ray collision with Earth? Does this make much of a difference in the risk of creating a Black Hole?


In case you're wondering, I have reasons for my questions.

The first has to do with Alpha Orionis/Betelgeuse which is progressively collapsing and there's some thought it might be nearing a supernova. If a gamma burst hit Earth full on we'd all be dead anyway so it wouldn't matter, but if we didn't get a gamma-burst, it would put on a hell of a show -- it would light up the night sky and would probably last a couple of years -- it probably would add an increase to radiation on earth as well.

The second question simply is out of curiousity. I simply want to know if that thing could be shut down in a hurry if anything went wrong with it.

The third question simply has to do with a claim of someone expressing worry about the LHC creating a black-hole. I personally do not believe this to be a serious possibility because quite simply I've been told the energy levels are not sufficient to do it, but still, I'd like an answer.


INRM
 
Just read that when they are ready to go they will begin att 3,5 TeV.

That's the energy in one proton. The energy I quoted is twice that (it's the total energy in a collision between two such protons moving in opposite directions).

at what energy levels are the doomsayers afraid that it will start to create black holes?

The doomsayers aren't smart enough to assign any particular number to anything. If the LHC produces any black holes, it will be the greatest and most exciting scientific discovery of the last 500 years, and completely harmless.

Is there much difference between 2 and 3,5 in terms of what kind of information they will get from the collisions?

The relevant comparison is 2 (actually 1.8 I think) and 7, or using your convention .9 and 3.5. Yes, that's enough of a gain to learn something. But the LHC was designed to run at twice those energies (7 or 14 depending on how you count it), and with much greater luminosity (i.e. many more collisions per second) than it will start at. So it's not likely to uncover anything very interesting until they get it up to near its design energy and luminosity.
 
I am street orator.

That's all the explanation I need, right there. Not that I believe what you're saying, but it IS refreshing to hear you admit to being one of the street preacher crowd. It puts it all into perspective. Do you have a 'The End is Nigh!' sign? I hear the're a cool accessory to have.

A.
 
If a star went supernova at the time the LHC was running at full power, would there be a risk of a black hole combined with the extra radiation reaching us (assuming we did not get a gamma burst, but a star near us supernova'd and it was a couple of times brighter than the moon)?

No.

The argument isn't that the LHC is a little bit less powerful than cosmic rays and some little thing could push it over the edge. The most energetic cosmic rays measured have something like a billion times more energy. The kinds of energy we can reach in collisions barely even registers compared to cosmic rays.

This is a nice graph. It shows the frequency the Earth is hit by cosmic rays of various energies. The Tevatron and LHC are at around 1012 eV. There's a particle with that energy hitting every square metre of the Earth (the atmosphere at least) every second.

A final point to bear in mind is that the energy of particles reaching us does not depend on the distance they've travelled (OK, it does affect it to a certain extent, but I'm keeping things simple here). Radiation reaching us from Betelgeuse would not be any higher energy than the radiation that reaches us all the time from elsewhere. There would certainly be more of it, but it wouldn't do anything more interesting in collisions.

How quickly could the LHC be throttled down and shut down from when it's running at high power?

I can't recall the exact figures off the top of my head, but the beam dump system certainly works within microseconds.

Would the head-on collisions that occur in the LHC, be more slow-moving than a cosmic-ray collision with Earth? Does this make much of a difference in the risk of creating a Black Hole?

What do you mean by "slow moving"? At the energies we're talking about, the particles themselves are all moving at essentially the speed of light. The collisions themselves are not moving at all, since a collision is just an event at a single moment in time.

Possibly what you're getting at is the idea that the products of a collision in the LHC will have a total momentum of zero so some may be moving quite slowly, while the total momentum of a cosmic ray collision will be high and therefore the products are likely to be going a lot faster and be capable of escaping from the Earth. This does not affect the possibility of creating a black hole, or anything else for that matter.

It could affect the danger posed by a black hole once it's been created. The idea goes that a black hole created with a high velocity would just pass straight through the Earth and disappear off into space, while one with a low velocity could get trapped by the Earth's gravity. It could then spend billions of years slowly eating particles until it eventually ate away the whole core and destroyed the Earth.

There are several problems with this. The first is simply that theory doesn't predict black holes will be formed. The second is that theory also says black holes evaporate, and a black hole that small would evaporate so fast it would never have the chance to meet any particles. In order for there to be any danger of black holes in the LHC, our theories have to be completely wrong. However, if that is the case there's not point trying to predict what could happen, since we obviously don't have the correct theories with which to do so.

The first has to do with Alpha Orionis/Betelgeuse which is progressively collapsing and there's some thought it might be nearing a supernova. If a gamma burst hit Earth full on we'd all be dead anyway so it wouldn't matter

Not necessarily. Gamma ray bursts are very short, so it would affect only half the planet. It would likely mess up the atmosphere and cause some pretty major problems, but wiping out humans is not a foregone conclusion.

The second question simply is out of curiousity. I simply want to know if that thing could be shut down in a hurry if anything went wrong with it.

Yes it can. However, that's not out of any worry about safety, it's in order to protect the machine itself. In a relatively low power accelerator like a synchrotron light source, if there is a problem and the beam needs to be dumped you can just turn off the power and let the particles scatter themselves all over the place.

However, the amount of energy stored in the beams of a high energy collider like the LHC would burn a hole straight through wherever it ended up and could potentially wreck the whole thing. that means you need to have a seriously fast and reliable mechanism to send the beam into a safe place. In the LHC, there is a series of kicker magnets that will steer the beam basically straight into a hole in the ground.
 
The sociological discipline of ethnomethodology studies social order and social expectations and the methods by which they are maintained. One of their methods is what is called a “breaching experiment.” This involves breaching social expectations, and observing how participants try to restore social order. I have written to several ethnomethodologists, suggesting that they look at this thread, and the whole collider issue, and analyze it as a breaching experiment.

Don't kid yourself that you are anything but typical of the species known as Troll. You start with a claim and ask people to refute it. When they do, you can't counter, instead you change the focus. When you finally run out of ideas you turn to insults.
I suspect you don't really care about any of this, you just want the attention.
 
It has been roughly one week since the last Tevatron update on June 9th... that's 5-6 more days that the Tevatron at FermiLab has been operating in the TeV energy range with no ill, black-hole-making, planet-destroying effects.

Meh :rolleyes:


But wait till it's Dr.Gordon Freeman's turn to run it.....:D
 
The Intellectual Challenge of Existential Risk Reduction

You guys might be interested in the following article. Perhaps someone here would be interesting in helping with existential risk reduction. I did not coin the term "existential risk," so you can see via Google what others are doing with it. The article I am posting here was published in the August issue of Vidya, the journal of the Triple Nine Society. Google that. I retained copyright.

The Intellectual Challenge of Existential Risk Reduction
Copyright (c) 2009 James Blodgett

Existential risks are risks to our existence, risks that could make the human race extinct. Asteroid impact killed the dinosaurs, as per current theory. Existential risk could do the same to us. Even amateurs have been able to accomplish existential risk reduction, albeit in most cases reduction by a small amount. Even a small reduction in an existential risk is valuable. Existential risk reduction is an intellectual challenge because human thought in these areas could often use improvement, as we will see below. This challenge is an opportunity, because thinking can be improved.

Existential risks can be reduced, in some cases even by amateurs. For example, the risk of asteroid impact cannot be eliminated, but it can be reduced by finding and studying asteroids that might hit Earth. If we find one, and if we have enough time, deflection may be possible. There are several projects to find asteroids that pass near earth. Project participants think they have found a good portion of this class of asteroid. None of those they have found are likely to hit us anytime soon. This checking reduces risk even though risk has not yet been found, since something might have been found. Amateur astronomers did some of this work.

The most important existential risk that has been reduced is the risk of global nuclear war. This was reduced by the reduction of nuclear arsenals at the end of the cold war. Gorbachev and Reagan deserve most of the credit for this, but the ground was prepared for them by legions of amateur ban-the-bomb protesters and essayists. If they had not countered enthusiasm for nuclear weapons on the part of some patriotic military types, Gorbachev might have found a colder reception from both sides. Note that this risk has been reduced, not eliminated. The risk of a small-scale nuclear war may be greater today, a potential tragedy, but less of an extinction threat.

People do not think well about existential risks. There are several reasons for this.

One reason that thought on this subject is difficult is that destruction of our species is "unthinkable" in the sense that it is more comfortable not to think about it. Therefore many people do not think about it.

Another reason that thought on this subject is difficult is the lack of experience of existential risk in human evolutionary history. Humans have glandular and nervous system reactions to lesser risk. For example, we have a startle reflex that alerts us to sudden noises and movements in our visual field, movements that may have meant danger to our ancestors. On the other hand, we may know intellectually that species go extinct, but we have not had that built into our reactions and our emotions by evolution because we as a species have never experienced extinction, as demonstrated by the fact that we are still here.

Another reason that thought on this subject is difficult is the difference between personal and collective concerns. People often make decisions based on costs and benefits to themselves, and perhaps to immediate family and friends, ignoring externalities, i.e. costs to the commonwealth and to the larger population. In the case of risk there is a large mathematical difference between risk to an individual and existential risk. For example, US citizens experience a 1/7,348 chance of dying per year from a motor vehicle accident.[1] On a personal level, this makes an existential risk at this level or lower seem unimportant, since it is in the range of a risk we already accept. However, the mathematics of expected value shows that a 1/7,348 probability of actualization of an existential risk is in many senses equivalent to the death of 911,812 people. This is hardly trivial.

Expected value is the right math here, from most points of view.

Expected value is calculated by multiplying the probability of each possible outcome times the value of that outcome. For example, consider a game where you flip a coin. If the coin lands on "heads" you win $1. If the coin lands on "tails" you do not win anything. The expected value of a coin flip in this game is 0.5, the probability of "heads," times $1, which equals $0.50, plus 0.5, the probability of tails, times zero, which equals zero. The sum of this is $0.50. If you play this game 1,000 times, you will win approximately $500. A coin flip in this game is "worth" $0.50.

If an existential risk had the same probability as a motor vehicle accident for a US citizen, this would mean a 1/7,348 probability of actualization of that existential risk per year. (Some existential risks have a higher probability than this, some a lower probability.) This is multiplied by 6.7 billion, the current population of earth, to give an expected value of 911,812 deaths per year. This is a minimum since it does not consider the value of future lives. Individuals considering their personal interests might not care about the entire population of earth, but those considering the collective welfare (as we do here) should care. Of course the result is either 6.7 billion deaths or zero deaths, but expected value says that a 1/7,348 probability of the bad outcome is "worth" 911,812 deaths, in several (but not all) senses of "worth."

The difference between personal and collective concerns applies to benefits as well as to risks. The totality of science benefits humanity, but many scientific findings are of academic interest, having little practical use to the commonwealth. However, academic findings have substantial value to the career of the academician who finds them. This results in a conflict of interest on the part of scientists who are eager for new data, and who are also asked to evaluate the safety of the experiments that will produce that new data. Scientists are generally nice guys, not mad scientists bent on destroying earth. However, scientists are rarely risk specialists, and they are rarely aware of the mathematics of expected value and its philosophical implications as outlined here. If a risk seems low to a scientist, a conflict of interest can result in an incentive to see a "low" risk as a "non-existent" risk.

For example, I (the author) saw the apparent results of conflict of interest during recent work on the collider issue. There has been concern that particle colliders might create black holes that might swallow earth, or strangelets that might catalyze conversion of earth into strange matter. Collider advocates expounded many reasons not to worry, often poor reasons. For example, one physicist wrote an article for a popular newspaper telling the public not to worry about colliders. His reasons were not clear from his article, so I asked him over lunch. It turned out that he did not believe in black holes. He explained, "When an equation goes to infinity, that tells us that there is something wrong with the equation." He may be right about this, but he is betting earth on a theory with which most physicists would disagree. Even officially constituted groups produced poor results, including three studies commissioned by collider institutes that promised the public that nothing could possibly go wrong. [2] Risk management best practices suggests that participants in safety studies have a diversity of backgrounds, and that some participants not have a conflict of interest regarding the outcome of the study. This was not achieved in the first two safety studies, which were produced by groups that consisted totally of collider physicists, mainly physicists who planned to conduct experiments at colliders. The third study attempted to achieve diversity by selecting physicists who were not about to conduct experiments, but it still selected physicists who were eager to analyze data from those experiments, and even the third group did not include members of other relevant disciplines, for example astronomy, relevant since an important safety factor depended on astronomical data, or risk management, relevant since the basic task was risk management. A total of three studies sounds like a lot, but three were necessary because safety factors touted as adequate to protect earth in the first two studies eroded. Black hole formation was supposed to require energy beyond the reach of any collider, [3] then physics papers appeared, unrelated to the collider controversy, that predict production of black holes at colliders (if their theories are true.) [4] Black holes were supposed to evaporate instantly in a puff of Hawking radiation, [5] then physics papers appeared, unrelated to the collider controversy, that questioned the fundamental theory behind Hawking radiation, a radiation that has never been observed. [6] A collection of strangelets was supposed to be electrically positive on its surface, and therefore not attract other matter. [7] However, a new study found that a collection of strangelets can be electrically negative on its surface. [8] An analogy between collider-created black holes and cosmic-ray-created black holes was supposed to demonstrate safety, but the analogy as originally proposed was inexact, and had to be modified in the most recent safety paper. [9] This recent safety paper has been challenged by several scientists, [10] but it appears to be better than previous efforts, and as such reduces risk in the sense that a doing a preflight checklist reduces risk, even though nothing wrong is found, and even though risk is not completely eliminated. The current position of many collider advocates is that the risk is zero, [11] a true statement if their theories are true. However, the evaporation of safety factors documented above shows that recent physics in this area has not been mature enough to produce definitive safety factors, suggesting a greater-than-zero probability that we have not suddenly reached that maturity.

Each existential risk presents differently. Some scientists readily admit the existential risk associated with their field. Eric Drexler, a founding father of nanotechnology, expounded what he called the "grey goo" problem. He advocated construction of reproducing nanobots, analogous to life. However, reproducing nanobots might get out of control, converting our entire biosphere (including us) into a swarming mass of nanobots, a mass that might look like "grey goo." [12] Current nanotechnologists address this problem by proposing a ban on reproducing nanobots. [13] At the moment this is an easy ban to implement, since nanotechnologists do not yet have the technology to make reproducing nanobots. It will be interesting to see if this ban survives invention of that technology. Researchers in artificial intelligence also admit the existential risk associated with their field. It is difficult for them to avoid doing so, since versions of that risk are the subject of many bad and a few good science fiction movies. However, most researchers feel that the actual creation of strong artificial intelligence is well in the future, and so does not restrict their current work. I exchanged email with the leader of one group that hopes to produce artificial intelligence soon. She was aware of existential concerns but was not willing to let them restrict her work. One solution is to make sure that artificial intelligence is "friendly," [14] a good idea, but some promise to prove that friendliness in advance, a proof that seems difficult to produce.

I think I see a relation between the immediacy of the risk and the willingness to admit that risk. Collider physicists, who are about ready to start experiments with their new Large Hadron Collider at CERN, are least likely to see risk. Nanotech and AI researchers, who feel far from implementation, are more likely to see risk. But there is an exception. Recombinant DNA researchers saw the risk of proposed new experiments, and called a conference at Asilomar to implement limitations on those experiments. [15]

Another reason that thought on this subject is difficult is the complexity of the philosophical and economic issues.

One issue is that existential risk from human endeavor has to be compared to the value of that endeavor, so we can see whether costs and benefits balance. How does one balance an existential risk? In some cases there may be existential consequences on both sides of the balance. For example, it seems quite unlikely that collider physics will produce a magic energy source or space drive that could not be discovered by other means, but a small probability of those outcomes might balance a small probability of extinction. A space drive that allows us to settle other planets could save us from extinction. Similarly, artificial intelligence could have great value, perhaps in the best case saving us from ourselves. Another philosophical question is the worth of artificial intelligence to itself. Should we let that balance our worth to ourselves? Does this require that the population of AIs equal the population of humans? How does one count a population of AIs that might split or merge in a microsecond?

One promising recent contribution to thought in this area is the exposition, and the acceptance in some quarters, of what is called "the precautionary principle." This is the idea that the group, scientific or industrial, that proposes risky activity has the responsibility of proving it safe. This differs from normal practice in law, where those injured have to prove injury, and it differs from normal practice in science, where those who propose the theory that an activity is risky have to prove that theory. However, the precautionary principle is seen by some scientists and even some risk managers as being too conservative. In addition, even formal acceptance of the precautionary principle too frequently lacks teeth. The European Union has formally accepted the precautionary principle, but we could not find an official willing to take responsibility for enforcement.

Some existential risks are natural and are not the result of human activity. Examples are asteroid impact, a nearby cosmic ray burst, or a super volcano. However, most natural risks have potential for mitigation, a potential which may be realized or not, so we are not relieved of responsibility or the need for thought and balance because the risk is natural.

Another reason that thought on this subject is difficult is that it is easier to leave it to others. But that misses the intellectual challenge. It also misses the need; this is important work, and others are not doing a good job. The purpose of this article is to recruit folks to address this challenge. But it is not an easy challenge. We have tried various ways to influence debates about existential risk. Our strategy has been to try a lot of things in the hope that something works. Most of our efforts have not worked, but a few have. Effectiveness of various risk-reduction strategies depends on the particulars of the specific risk, and on the current state of risk reduction for that risk. Your first step is to learn these things. The references in this article, the following reference: [16], and the SIG website mentioned below, provide a basic summary; go beyond that summary. Humans do not think well about these things, so it is likely that improvements in thinking would facilitate improvements in risk management. Consider how to promote and implement improvements. Even a good letter to the editor might change the terms of the debate enough to reduce risk by a small amount; the mathematics of expected value discussed above shows the value of a even a small reduction in an existential risk. I am also advertising for the Global Risk Reduction SIG in American Mensa. [17] Membership there might have some advantages. We would like to see you. But this is work for independent intellectuals, so group membership is not required. If you choose to get involved, do so in your own style. But make it a thoughtful style. Good thought, we hope and believe, improves the prospect of good outcomes.

Footnotes

[1] Based on 13.61 motor vehicle fatalities (including pedestrians) per 100,000 US population in 2007, from Fatality Analysis Reporting System, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, at http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx . Accessed 6/17/09.

[2] These studies are cited in footnotes [3], [5], and [9] below.

[3] [W. Busza, R.L. Jaffe, J. Sandweiss, and F. Wilczek, "Review of Speculative ‘Disaster Scenarios'," Brookhaven, (2000), pg. 10] A more quotable version of the same idea was expressed by Thomas Gutierrez: "it is just about as likely that a black hole will randomly appear next to your head as you read this article." ["Doomsday fears at RHIC," Skeptical Inquirer, May, 2000].

[4] [Steven Giddings and Scott Thomas, "High energy colliders as black hole factories: the end of short-distance physics," Physical Review D 65(5) (2002) 056010], [Savas Dimopoulos and Greg Landsberg, "Black holes at the Large Hadron Collider," Physical Review Letters, 87(16) 161602, (2001)], and many similar papers.

[5] [J.-P. Blaizot, J. Iliopoulos, J. Madsen, G.G. Ross, P. Sonderegger, and H.-J. Specht, "Study Of Potentially Dangerous Events During Heavy-Ion Collisions At The LHC: Report Of The LHC Safety Study Group," CERN, (2003), pg 12.] "Thermal processes" in this context means Hawking radiation.

[6] [Adam D. Helfer, "Do black holes radiate?" Reports on Progress in Physics. Vol. 66 No. 6 (2003) pp. 943-1008], and [William G. Unruh and Ralf Schützhold, "On the Universality of the Hawking Effect," Physics Review D 71(2005) 024028].

[7] This point is made in both [3] and [5] above.

[8] G. X. Peng, X. J. Wen, Y. D. Chen, "New solutions for the color-favor locked strangelets," Physics Letters B, 633 (2006) 314-318.

[9] The most recent safety paper is [John Ellis, Gian Giudice, Michelangelo Mangano, Igor Tkachev, and Urs Wiedemann, (Large Hadron Collider Safety Assessment Group(LSAG)), "Review of the Safety of LHC Collisions," CERN, (2008).] The collider/cosmic ray analogy is modified in an associated paper, [ Steven B. Giddings and Michelangelo L. Mangano, "Astrophysical implications of hypothetical stable TeV-scale black holes," Physical Review D, 78, 035009 (2008) ]

[10] Challenges appear in [Otto Rössler, "Abraham-Solution to Schwarzschild Metric Implies That CERN Miniblack Holes Pose a Planetary Risk," (2008) http://www.wissensnavigator.com/documents/OTTOROESSLERMINIBLACKHOLE.pdf ], [ Rainer Plaga, "On the potential catastrophic risk from metastable quantum-black holes produced at particle colliders," (2008). arXiv:0808.1415v2], and [ Toby Ord, Rafaela Hillerbrand, and Anders Sandberg, "Probing the Improbable: Methodological Challenges for Risks with Low Probabilities and High Stakes," available at: http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/4020/probing-the-improbable.pdf ]

[11] CERN's Chief Scientific Officer, Jos Engelen, was quoted in the New Yorker as instructing CERN scientists not to say that the risk from colliders is low, but to say that the risk is zero. [Elizabeth Kolbert, "Annals of Science: Crash Course," The New Yorker, May 14, 2007]

[12] Eric Drexler, Engines of Creation, Bantam Doubleday Dell, June 1986.

[13] Robert A. Freitas Jr., "The Gray Goo Problem," (see public policy recommendation 1,) available at:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0142.html?
Accessed 6/25/09
[14] [Eliezer Yudkowsky, "Creating Friendly AI," available at: http://www.singinst.org/upload/CFAI//index.html] accessed 6/25/09. Also see the Wikipedia article "Friendly artificial intelligence" accessed 6/25/09.

[15] Wikipedia, "Asilomar Conference on Recombinant DNA." Accessed 6/25/09.

[16] Mark Leggett, "An Indicative Costed Plan for the Mitigation of Global Risks," Futures, 2006, Vol. 38, p. 778-809.

[17] See the special interest group listing at www.us.mensa.org. Also see www.global-risk-sig.org.
 
Your article falls flat for many reasons. Here are a few:

1) Your assertion that the expected number of deaths is the "right math" is entirely unsupported. Your example (risk of death by auto accident) illustrates the opposite of what you seem to want it to, because the existential risk to the human race due to auto accidents is absurdly small (much smaller than the risk of death per person). Multiplying the risk per individual by the population tells you roughly how many people actually die every year; it says nothing about tolerable levels of existential risk.

2) Since nearly every conceivable activity carries existential risks both if it is undertaken and if it is not, the "precautionary principle" is ill-posed in this context.

3) The risk of earth's annihilation by LHC-produced black holes is indeed zero within all known consistent theories of physics. While it is obviously possible that all those theories are wrong and the correct theory predicts that the LHC is dangerous, the value of that risk is by its nature impossible to estimate.

Even more damning for your position, the risk of the contrary possibility - that not turning on the LHC would be dangerous - contains a piece that is possible to estimate, and is non-negligible (the risk being that your brand of reasoning leads to a cessation of scientific experiments, even those as well-understood and safe as the LHC, which in turn exacerbates major and well-known risks to the human race such as global warming, disease, water shortage, meteor strikes, etc.). And this risk contains another piece, one that is just as unknowable as the risk of turning on LHC (all our theories are wrong and the turn-on of the LHC is in fact the only thing that can save us from falling into a black hole). Hence one cannot make any decisions regarding LHC based on criteria like the ones you are proposing.

4) In light of 2) and 3), the only reasonable principle is that if one opposes project X on the grounds of existential risk, one must prove two things:

a) that the existential risk of X is larger than the existential risk of not X, and
b) that the existential risk of X is sufficiently large to warrant not doing it.

Once I see your evidence for a) and b) for the LHC, I'll take you seriously. Your work is cut out for you.
 
Perhaps James Blodgett can tell us how to determine the difference between the following scenarios:

Scenario A: Turning on the LHC evokes unknown physics and causes the destruction of the Earth.

Scenario B: Turning on the LHC evokes unknown physics and prevents the destruction of the Earth.
 
<sarcasm>
I would also point out the fact that Mr. Wagner and Mr. Blodgett have not, as far as I know, voiced any opposition to the continued operation of the Tevatron, Jefferson Lab, MAMI, RHIC, CLEO, Triumf, the Oak Ridge Van de Graff, and so on---dozens and dozens of low-energy accelerators.

According to Mr. Blodgett's logic, since physics theory is not perfect, we may not know for sure that (focusing on, say, Oak Ridge) 100 MeV nucleus-nucleus collisions are not a source of Earth-eating strangelets. How confident are we that Oak Ridge is not a strangelet catastrophe waiting to happen? Well, says Mr. Blodgett, it's run for decades without incident---lucky us, right?

Unfortunately, no. The Oak Ridge van de Graff has been running heavy-ion beams for about 27 years. The first year of running, roughly speaking, ORNL learned, NOT that heavy ion collisions are harmless, but that the strangelet-danger probability was less than 100% per year. After 27 years of running, they have learned that the strangelet-danger probability is less than 100% per 27 years. Statistically speaking, that's it---they have not ruled out any of the following cases:

  • "ORNL has a 50% chance of destroying the world annually. We've been lucky at the one-in-a-billion level so far but next year may be kaput."
  • "ORNL has a 5% chance of destroying the world per year. Our 27-year safe run is something you'd only expect 25% of the time."
  • "ORNL has a mean change of destroying the world of 3.5% per year."
  • "ORNL has a mean change of destroying the world of 0.001% per year; our 27-year run can make no meaningful statements about this possibility."

Does any of those worry you? They're all technically non-zero "risks" that you can multiply by your infinity "cost". You can label each of them as an infinitely-bad idea.

There you go. James, if you'd like to divert your attention from the LHC for a moment, I can point you towards dozens and dozens of small accelerators, reactors, bio labs, crop breeding programs, Bose-Einstein condensate labs, tokamaks, and diamond-anvil pressure cells. None of these things can provide you with statistical proof of safety---all they can say is "We have't destroyed the Earth in finite time X"---and therefore, by your logic, each of them represents an infinitely large risk to Planet Earth. In fact, your personal effort to prevent people from doing (say) crop-breeding research is infinitely valuable to humankind as long as it has a nonzero chance of working!

<extra sarcasm>
It's incredibly selfish of you, then, to be withholding your infinitely-valuable ability to stop the Tevatron. Did you ever realize that every microsecond you devote to anti-LHC-advocacy is a microsecond you could have spent on equally-valuable anti-Tevatron/MAMI/ORNL/Monsanto advocacy?
Did you stop for lunch today, rather than devoting your lunch break to Tevatron-suspension advocacy? That lunch break presented a nonzero chance to stop a nonzero chance of a infinitely-costly Tevatron black hole---therefore your salami sandwich had an infinite opportunity cost. You'd have been better off kicking a puppy.</extra>
</sarcasm>
 
I missed Brian Cox's talk at TAM on Saturday (damn you alarm clock!) but someone tweeted that he said:

"Anyone who thinks the LHC will make blackholes is a twat".

I do not know if this is verbatim! :p
 

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