The Core Message of Christianity

[dafydd]

The one who ordered the death of a man who gathered sticks on Sabbath? The smiting of the Midianites? The murder of all Egyptian firstborn? The execution of homosexuals? That god?

Do you happen to have his number? I'd like to have a word with him about his more than questionable morals.

I have some pertinent questions to put to him too.

 

[hamelekim]

The one who ordered the death of a man who gathered sticks on Sabbath? The smiting of the Midianites? The murder of all Egyptian firstborn? The execution of homosexuals? That god?

Do you happen to have his number? I'd like to have a word with him about his more than questionable morals.

God has the right to punish sinners, and to do what he wants with his creation, within the bounds of his nature.

Essentially you are trying to argue that the clay vessel is equal to the potter, or better in some cases. That you somehow understand something that an all knowing infinite God does not. How could that ever be the case?

We can get into argument about free will and predestination, but in the end, we don't' know the whole story, and God isn't going to tell us the whole story in this lifetime.

God is clear that we are responsible for our actions, even though God knew from before he created Adam and Eve that they would fall, and that many people would go to Hell. Since God is just and righteous, there is an explanation behind it, something to do with free will and space time that we just don't understand.

If you cannot accept that you will not have all the answers, only some of them, then you have a problem.

You joke about it now, but could you be so bold and flippant standing before God on judgement day?

 

[joobz]

I would be happy to think that the core message was the golden rule and that it was actually applied evenly.

And to DR, I've always wondered why more christians weren't communists.

 

[Sun Countess]

Essentially you are trying to argue that the clay vessel is equal to the potter, or better in some cases. That you somehow understand something that an all knowing infinite God does not. How could that ever be the case?

That's not what anyone is saying. They're saying that a potter who knowingly makes a bunch of vessels with flaws in them, just so he can say, "Stupid flawed vessels!" then fling them at the wall, smashing them into thousands of pieces - isn't a very competent potter.

 

[hamelekim]

That's not what anyone is saying. They're saying that a potter who knowingly makes a bunch of vessels with flaws in them, just so he can say, "Stupid flawed vessels!" then fling them at the wall, smashing them into thousands of pieces - isn't a very competent potter.

I think this passage partially answers the question, but it is not the complete answer, because God doesn't actually create sinners, instead he allow them to create themselves through procreation. He does this so that he can pick some vessels for mercy for his glory, and to show his wrath and power.

Romans 9

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For(Z) who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man,(AA) to answer back to God?(AB) Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21(AC) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump(AD) one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience(AE) vessels of wrath(AF) prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known(AG) the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he(AH) has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he(AI) has called,(AJ) not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?​

So the question you have to ask is. Just because you think something is unfair, does that make it wrong? If someone is richer than someone else isn't that unfair? Shouldn't we take away wealth from richer people so that everyone has equal wealth?

God did all the work, he created us, we are nothing but clay in God's hands. So if he allowed us to sin so that he could show his glory, who are you, the created, to condemn him? He has the right, as God, to do what he wills, within his nature.

Since our nature is sin, God has every justification to do what he wills with us.

That is the one issue I have with many preachers who are for predestination. They never explain why God allowed it to happen in the first place, which leaves openings to attach God for allowing it to happen in the first place.

Obviously the issue still hasn't been settled by Christians. Many of the explanations remove the power of God and rely too much on the free will of man, making God a spectator.

In any case, the doctrine of election is meant to bring strength to Christians, not to somehow convert non believers. It is enough for a Christian to know that they were selected by God, in love, rather than they made some intellectual choice and it was all by chance.

 

[hamelekim]

I would be happy to think that the core message was the golden rule and that it was actually applied evenly.

And to DR, I've always wondered why more christians weren't communists.

The first Christians essentially were.

Although, the argument that some Christians would give is that Communism is Godless, and is run by the government, meaning men, who are not of God, hence it leads to evil.

I don't see how that is any different from Capitalism, which is run by men, who are not of God, and leads to countless people suffering because of the selfishness of others.

I think we can agree that given human nature, most people will not give to others unless they have a very good reason to. Suffering people in Africa, for the most part, is not a reason to Give.

If it were people in their town, or someone they knew, that would be different.

I'm a bit of an aberration, as is my mother, in that we are Christians who are socially conservative, but economically very liberal.

It bothers me a great deal when Christians link socialism to Satan and capitalism to God.

 

[Ethnikos]

Okay, well, here's where more clarification would be good. Do you agree or disagree with Ethnikos? I wish he would post here and state his beliefs clearly, because all we have to go on is what was said on another thread, but he did just say there that Catholics (and a great big undefined bunch of other Christians as well) were not saved, and were going to hell. Catholics do believe in Jesus. So what's your vote on where they're going to end up?

Joining a club does not save you, even if the name of the club somewhere has the word, Jesus in it. Salvation is an individual thing and having someone else standing up in front of the group sipping wine doesn't do anyone a bit of good.

 

[Ethnikos]

I was after different peoples' descriptions of the central message of Christianity - the core of Christ's teachings, without the inevitable trappings.

The core of Christ's teaching might be slightly different than the core teaching of the Christian religion.
What Jesus taught was (according to my paraphrased version), Whatever you think the law demands, or whatever you think the minimal requirements for entering God's kingdom are, you are not even close in your understanding. In fact, your thinking that you are acceptable to God actually condemns you. You must throw your self down on the ground and throw dirt on yourself (not literally) and cry out, Oh wretched person that I am!

 

[Ethnikos]

... yet on sites such as "Rapture Ready", there are a zillion threads on the subject of "How to Convert Catholics" at any given time.

They are idiots and do not understand that their own little cherished and worshipped belief system damns them as much as any Catholic.

 

[Eskarina]

God has the right to punish sinners, and to do what he wants with his creation, within the bounds of his nature.

IOW, it's my ball and my rules and if you don't like it you can go to another ballpark. Except that according to you there is no other ballpark. Very mature.

Essentially you are trying to argue that the clay vessel is equal to the potter, or better in some cases. That you somehow understand something that an all knowing infinite God does not. How could that ever be the case?

I'm awed. Well, not really. If some freak tells me that it's okay to kill homosexuals or someone gathering sticks on the Sabbath or someone who wears mixed fabrics or a rape victim or..., I tend to tell them to just shove their opinion where the sun doesn't shine.

We can get into argument about free will and predestination, but in the end, we don't' know the whole story, and God isn't going to tell us the whole story in this lifetime.

Why not? I'm quite understanding, actually.

God is clear that we are responsible for our actions, even though God knew from before he created Adam and Eve that they would fall, and that many people would go to Hell. Since God is just and righteous, there is an explanation behind it, something to do with free will and space time that we just don't understand.

Just don't or just can't understand? Either way, your god is FUBAR.

If you cannot accept that you will not have all the answers, only some of them, then you have a problem.

Not really. I'll probably never understand quantum mechanics or string theory either and it doesn't faze me one bit.

You joke about it now, but could you be so bold and flippant standing before God on judgement day?

Obviously, your god's core message is "Fear me!!!!eleventyone11!1!" So not my kind of guy.

 

[X]

Saved from what? I don't need saving,I'm not in danger.

Addicts don't think they have a problem either. It takes others to point out that they have a problem.

Nice logic.
Begin with the assumption that someone is deficient/wrong.
If they agree, that proves they are deficient/wrong, and they need help.
If they deny, that proves they are deficient/wrong, and they need help.

I think they tried logic like that when torturing suspected witches.

Inquisition: "Are you a witch?"
Suspect A: "Yes"
Inquisition: "Admission of guilt! Repent and die, witch!"
--- --- ---
Inquisition: "Are you a witch?"
Suspect A: "No"
Inquisition: "Denial! Only the guilty would deny it! Torture the witch until they admit guilt, then kill them!"

Regardless, Hamelekim, you first need to establish the god (specifically your preferred version of god) exists, before you can argue need for salvation by this god.





As far as the core message of Christianity is concerned, I would say the following:

God should be praised for all the good he does, and Jesus' selfless sacrifice on our behalf was the greatest of good things.

Bear in mind, I grew up attending the United Church of Canada, which is very liberal. Typically, sermons revolved around good things and happiness being evidence of god's love, and never dealt with bad things. Very happy-happy-lovey-lovey.

And that's the impression I got from it.

 

[Tebtenri]

I sort of like the rejoinder Genghis khan used to give to his vanquished kings and priests: "Where is your God Now?"

 

[dafydd]

God has the right to punish sinners, and to do what he wants with his creation, within the bounds of his nature.

Essentially you are trying to argue that the clay vessel is equal to the potter, or better in some cases. That you somehow understand something that an all knowing infinite God does not. How could that ever be the case?

We can get into argument about free will and predestination, but in the end, we don't' know the whole story, and God isn't going to tell us the whole story in this lifetime.

God is clear that we are responsible for our actions, even though God knew from before he created Adam and Eve that they would fall, and that many people would go to Hell. Since God is just and righteous, there is an explanation behind it, something to do with free will and space time that we just don't understand.

If you cannot accept that you will not have all the answers, only some of them, then you have a problem.

You joke about it now, but could you be so bold and flippant standing before God on judgement day?

There will be no judgement day.