Out of body experiences.

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

I have been watching videos of Youtube for Near Death Experiences for a few hours now and have been thinking, could they be telling the truth? I mean could do they honestly believe that they died and went to Heaven/Hell? I have also been thinking if they did not see what they explained why would they tell it to every one? Or have special Sermons talking about it.

What I am trying to ask everyone here is, can things like that be debunked? Or can it only be left alone for us to think about?

 

[Towlie]

Give us some links, but not too many. How about just the ones that you found to be the most compelling?

 

[Marduk]

they can be debunked and have been, but to the people having a subjective experience that isn't as important as what they gained from the OOBE.

If someone has a NDE and when they return live a better or more substantial life then it doesn't matter if the experience was real or not does it ?

wiki has lots of details on this subject
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

 

[shandyjan]

Thread here on it you may want to check.
Interesting subject, where tests have been done they have been debunked. Other than that its the same as for people saying they spoke to a ghost. Its anecdotal.

ETA Oops, missed adding link

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95596

 

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6_QMHf0Uk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9bHee6Idt0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crRm9lIzRmg <<Part 1/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCn2ckvgLFE<<Part2/2

 

[Marduk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6_QMHf0Uk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9bHee6Idt0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crRm9lIzRmg <<Part 1/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCn2ckvgLFE<<Part2/2

do you believe in heaven and hell ?

 

[shandyjan]

I tried, Deadly Ninja, but I get the same feeling as I get watching a video of Benny Hinn, or Sylvia Brown. I just believe there are reasons for the experiences...but they are nothing to do with heaven or hell, or the paranormal in my mind. And I wonder how much the stories elaborate on each telling up until they become what they are on the video/news/interviews? Like the abduction stories that grew with the retelling?
My BS meter just zings when I watch.
(Personal opinion... not with any authority.)

 

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

do you believe in heaven and hell ?

I guess the easiest way for me to answer is 80% of me does not at all yet there is always that 20% peaking in on me.

 

[shandyjan]

do you believe in heaven and hell ?

You have a point there.

 

[Marduk]

I guess the easiest way for me to answer is 80% of me does not at all yet there is always that 20% peaking in on me.

Ok I have no belief in Heaven or Hell as a student of history I know that there was no hell prior to monotheism and heaven was markedly different,

so do you think my chances of seeing heaven would be decreased by me not thinking about the afterlife in any experience that it might be relevant, such as when I was being wheeled in for a life threatening operation ?

or

do you think credibility is affected by the most vocal believers in this experience always having a financial motivation to tell their story ?

or

have you ever come across any confirmed atheists who have seen heaven during a NDE ?

if the answers were yes/yes/no then you have already realised that anecdotal stories are no kind of acceptable evidence. To prove someone actually saw heaven you'd first need to prove it exists

 

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?

Not according to Terry Pratchett.

 

[Marduk]

Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?

theres one easy answer for this, the only part of the Bible that actually describes heaven is in the book that is the least read

Revelations 21
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=KJV
and even then its the heaven after armegeddon thats being described

most people get their idea of heaven from sunday school, as such it is an idea thats subject to individual imagination, which doesn't help with proof does it, unless youre trying to prove that whatever happened to these people wasn't death, and what they experienced was part of life

 

[ExMinister]

Ok I have no belief in Heaven or Hell as a student of history I know that there was no hell prior to monotheism and heaven was markedly different,

so do you think my chances of seeing heaven would be decreased by me not thinking about the afterlife in any experience that it might be relevant, such as when I was being wheeled in for a life threatening operation ?

or

do you think credibility is affected by the most vocal believers in this experience always having a financial motivation to tell their story ?

or

have you ever come across any confirmed atheists who have seen heaven during a NDE ?
if the answers were yes/yes/no then you have already realised that anecdotal stories are no kind of acceptable evidence. To prove someone actually saw heaven you'd first need to prove it exists

Howard Storm is an example of this. Atheist professor, had a near-death experience, the experience changed him so much he became a minister. Intriguing story. Personally I think he's sincere.

Ancedotes are no kind of evidence, I agree. But yes, I do think some of them are sincere. Of course, that doesn't mean what they saw was actually heaven, just that they are sincere in believing so. Others clearly seem to be in it for the money/fame (Dannion Brinkley). And there's no real reliable way to tell them apart, other than catching them in blatant lies or contradictions.

 

[Towlie]

Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?

I think most people's image of Heaven is pretty much like it was in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, with women wearing Salvation Army uniforms and 1940's hairdos handing out pamphlets at the entrance, nothing but white everywhere, and famous people hanging around in groups playing charades.

I just can't wait to go there.

 

[ExMinister]

I have been watching videos of Youtube for Near Death Experiences for a few hours now and have been thinking, could they be telling the truth? I mean could do they honestly believe that they died and went to Heaven/Hell? I have also been thinking if they did not see what they explained why would they tell it to every one? Or have special Sermons talking about it.

What I am trying to ask everyone here is, can things like that be debunked? Or can it only be left alone for us to think about?

I do think some of them honestly believe they died and went to heaven/hell, so they feel strongly motivated to share what they have "learned."

Can things like that be debunked? Yes and no. You can examine certain features of the experiences that would indicate they are more similar to hallucinatory sleep experiences, for example, than actual out-of-body events. There are interesting cross-cultural studies of NDEs that seem to indicate that what people see in an NDE is largely culturally dictated. You might find this article interesting: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html

 

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

Although, I find it weird that God would just let them see Heaven and leave. That would mean there is no Faith anymore for that person, only "knowing".

 

[Marduk]

Although, I find it weird that God would just let them see Heaven and leave. That would mean there is no Faith anymore for that person, only "knowing".

Thats ok Kid
I find it weird that anyone would even think that God had anything to do with it in the first place. While we're on the subject "Knowing" was a bloody awful film

 

[Towlie]

While we're on the subject "Knowing" was a bloody awful film

True, but the final scene is cool to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=knowing+final+scene

 

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

Thats ok Kid
I find it weird that anyone would even think that God had anything to do with it in the first place. While we're on the subject "Knowing" was a bloody awful film

Yeahh, well I also find it weird that God would let his "Perfect Creations" suffer something such as Hell. If he is God why wouldn't he just use his power to make us "good" rather than giving us a scenario made up by him.