Derren Brown is no different than Uri Gellar.

[microdot]

I feel the same way about, for example Tarot cards. I know that will be a controversial statement here, but I think they do have some totally non-woo-related utility (let's not get into it here.)

It should not be controversial before we hear what you have to say about it. Why not start a new thread, I'd like to know more..

If you do start that thread I'd like to take part - if I'm welcome

 

[Tapio]

I believe I have learned something useful today and for that I thank everyone who helped me to get there

Hey, for whatever you have learned here with us, you can be shure that the learning experience has been mutual (at least for me). This is exactly why I said I'm willing to go through tedious repetition. There are still some question marks in my mind regarding how you came to the conclusions you presented here, but I'm ready to call it quits for now (since we've unleashed the Kukotron ).

EGarret! What do you think, 17 pages! Exceedingly good for a thread with an insulting title and a typo, eh ?!

ETA: As for Tarot cards, I can say the last months have been all 'Tower' to me....

 

[microdot]

Hey, for whatever you have learned here with us, you can be shure that the learning experience has been mutual (at least for me). This is exactly why I said I'm willing to go through tedious repetition. There are still some question marks in my mind regarding how you came to the conclusions you presented here, but I'm ready to call it quits for now (since we've unleashed the Kukotron ).

EGarret! What do you think, 17 pages! Exceedingly good for a thread with an insulting title and a typo, eh ?!

ETA: As for Tarot cards, I can say the last months have been all 'Tower' to me....

Glad you approve

So when I kicked off with this:-

In his book TRICKS of the MIND Derren explains to the reader in detail the following NLP techniques:-

Swish Patterns - (which he calls Playing with Pictures - pages 190 to 194)
Fast Phobia Cure (which he calls Phobia Cure - pages 195 to 202)
Swish Patterns again (in a section on Self Confidence - pages 210 to 212)

If I'd written instead the following techniques which are also described within NLP, this thread could have been a lot shorter?

 

[psychictv]

It should not be controversial before we hear what you have to say about it. Why not start a new thread, I'd like to know more..

Nothing outlandish, I just think that tarot cards and all forms of fortune telling (i ching, newspaper horoscopes, etc.) can sometimes function as a sort of self-psychotherapy. Sort of like doing a cold reading on yourself. The trick is not in the random piece of "wisdom" that you get back but in meditating on your problem or question.

Anyway, I don't think that's threadworthy, but to tie it back into this discussion, if I were a magician and I mentioned this in a book and incorporated tarot cards into my act that would in no way constitute an endorsement for fortune telling or a belief that cards can actually divine the future.

 

[psychictv]

BTW, I was looking through a Banachek book last night and found this quote that I thought might be relevant to the discussion.

"I guess here is as good place as any to clarify my position on what you claim your abilities should be, or at least what I claim. A few people have stated, and rightfully so, that to claim your tricks are all accomplished by verbal and non-verbal communication or Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) is just as much a lie as someone who calls themselves a psychic yet is using trickery to accomplish their feats. This is true. If that is all you claim, then you are indeed setting people up to go to high priced seminars thinking they will be able to accomplish the same degree of "body language" as you do if they spend their money in such a fashion. To me, this is just as ethically wrong as stating one is a psychic when using magic tricks. It is one of the reasons I also add the words "Magic" and "Perceptual Manipulation" in my list of things I reveal I use to perform a show. In my Claim I tell them that each effect uses one or more of the five things. I use psychology, magic, verbal and non-verbal communication, and perceptual manipulation. This statement is true. In fact I have some effects that fully rely on only psychology and verbal communication to succeed. I do tell them that I will not reveal how much is in each effect and what is used to accomplish each effect but that each effect is accomplished by some or all of the stated methods and that I am not a psychic. What I am doing is entertainment and nothing more."

 

[Tapio]

If I'd written instead the following techniques which are also described within NLP, this thread could have been a lot shorter?

Possibly, but if you'd written something like:

'...the following techniques which are also described within NLP, but which Derren Brown has clearly explained not being inventions of NLP (which he repeatedly dismisses throughout the chapter)...

I could say, most certainly. A bit of nitpicking it is, but when we have only words on the screen (and people like myself who don't speak English as their native language)...

 

[vaguely]

(Checkmite and microdot, have you ever thought...

Y'know I think you might have stumbled upon the problem here...

 

[vaguely]

Myopinion on the "pyramid scheme" quote is that Derren is sugegsting it is like that in so much as its a con and uneefective method that is distasteful; notthing to do with money. I could be wrong,just my thinking.

I'm inclined to agree - he was being a bit metaphorical - each layer added to it is more and more removed from the perfectly sensible techniques it misappropriated at the outset.

But THEN

...if you go back to those perfectly sensible techniques, stripping away the bollocks, you might find some utility.

None of which can be in any way construed as endorsing NLP.

 

[microdot]

Possibly, but if you'd written something like:

'...the following techniques which are also described within NLP, but which Derren Brown has clearly explained not being inventions of NLP (which he repeatedly dismisses throughout the chapter)...

I could say, most certainly. A bit of nitpicking it is, but when we have only words on the screen (and people like myself who don't speak English as their native language)...

Point taken.

I have read back through the posts which constitute our discussion, as far back as my initial post - 429.

On reflection I am happy to concede that I probably misinterpreted the intent behind many of your posts and I offer my apologies for any offence this may have caused you.

Maybe we can metaphorically shake hands?

 

[psychictv]

I'm inclined to agree - he was being a bit metaphorical - each layer added to it is more and more removed from the perfectly sensible techniques it misappropriated at the outset.

I think he meant it quite literally. People took NLP courses from the founders, some of them went on to write their own books and start their own courses, and so on until it became a self-perpetuating industry that exists solely to sell people meaningless certificates. He discusses this a bit at the end of the chapter:

At the end of my course, which lasted only four days, I was given my Practitioner certificate. I didn't have to pass any tests or in any sense 'earn' my qualification... So the four hundred or so delegates, some of whom were clearly either unbalanced or self-delusory, were set free after a highly evangelical four-day rally to potentially set themselves up as therapists and deal with broken people under the banner of NLP.

So the program is quite literally just training people to become trainers themselves and go out and find more recruits. He goes on to talk about how you're supposed to renew your certificate each year. He ignored their several letters reminding him to renew and finally they just sent him a new certificate in the mail anyway!

 

[Tapio]

Maybe we can metaphorically shake hands?

You know, for me one of the most respectful aspects in a person is their capability to admit to their errors. I am smiling with joy to see this come out of our conversation. Rock on!

 

[microdot]

You know, for me one of the most respectful aspects in a person is their capability to admit to their errors. I am smiling with joy to see this come out of our conversation. Rock on!

Cool

 

[microdot]

Tapio, now that we have some foundation of agreement would you please be kind enough to read Tricks of the Mind, page 212?

 

[psychictv]

213 is pretty illuminating too.

 

[microdot]

213 is pretty illuminating too.

Indeed, very thought provoking.

 

[MikeSun5]

If I put an egg in dog crap, I can't honestly claim the resulting mixture is nutritious.

No, but if you did claim it was nutritious, would you be at fault when people start eating the dog crap? Would you accept responsibility?

By your logic, you'd be directly to blame when other people eat dog turds. Even though you're not a doctor and they'd be crazy to eat an egg in dog crap, it's your fault because you said it was nutritious. Doesn't make much sense now, does it?

BTW, I was looking through a Banachek book last night and found this quote that I thought might be relevant to the discussion.

"...A few people have stated, and rightfully so, that to claim your tricks are all accomplished by verbal and non-verbal communication or Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) is just as much a lie as someone who calls themselves a psychic yet is using trickery to accomplish their feats. This is true..."

Banachek makes a good point. Unfortunately for the Derren Brown bashers, DB doesn't claim his tricks are all accomplished by NLP or anything else. He, like Banachek, claims he uses many different techniques in order to acheive his effects. Two of those techniques are "magic" and "misdirection." Hey, those also happen to be the words/techniques that are conveniently ignored (along with "entertainer") by the anti-DB crowd.

 

[Garrette]

No, but if you did claim it was nutritious, would you be at fault when people start eating the dog crap? Would you accept responsibility?

How on earth did you get this from my comment. My discussion was entirely about claims versus reality; it did not involve people's actions based on those claims.

By your logic, you'd be directly to blame when other people eat dog turds. Even though you're not a doctor and they'd be crazy to eat an egg in dog crap, it's your fault because you said it was nutritious. Doesn't make much sense now, does it?

It makes no sense at all given that it isn't remotely related to what I said, implied, or argued.

 

[Tapio]

Tapio, now that we have some foundation of agreement would you please be kind enough to read Tricks of the Mind, page 212?

Thanks for pointing that out! It does seem DB gives credit to Bandler and NLP regarding this technique. I stand corrected. (ETA: This also makes your position more understandable to me )

But, as psychictv notes, so must I also add that the following text makes it clear that he is not endorsing NLP as such, just this particular technique.

This is exactly one of the reasons I have found these forums to be of great help. More eyes can always bring about a more comprehensive view of the whole. Thanks again!

 

[Kuko 4000]

Thanks for pointing that out! It does seem DB gives credit to Bandler and NLP regarding this technique. I stand corrected.

But, as psychictv notes, so must I also add that the following text makes it clear that he is not endorsing NLP as such, just this particular technique.

Tapio, could you quote the relevant parts from the book, I'd like to know which technique he's talking about?

 

[microdot]

Thanks for pointing that out! It does seem DB gives credit to Bandler and NLP regarding this technique. I stand corrected. (ETA: This also makes your position more understandable to me )

But, as psychictv notes, so must I also add that the following text makes it clear that he is not endorsing NLP as such, just this particular technique.

This is exactly one of the reasons I have found these forums to be of great help. More eyes can always bring about a more comprehensive view of the whole. Thanks again!

I appreciate you doing that and overall agree with what you say in your second paragraph also.