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[NewtonTrino]

So Emeralds in your system make $7k per year on average from the system?

Do you consider this ethical?

 

[Tex2]

So Emeralds in your system make $7k per year on average from the system?

Do you consider this ethical?

I consider it FAR less unethical than what they probably make from the tool scam, which is about 10-20 times more than $7/year.

 

[icerat]

So Emeralds in your system make $7k per year on average from the system?

Do you consider this ethical?

Do I consider it ethical for people to get paid speaking fees for sharing their expertise with others? Absolutely.

Do I consider it ethical for people to get volume discounts on things like cds and books? Absolutely.

 

[Tex2]

Do I consider it ethical for people to get paid speaking fees for sharing their expertise with others? Absolutely. >>>> Not if they say things that clearly imply they are NOT getting paid. Also not if they make the vast majority of their money from another source than the one they are promoting, and making that money from the back pockets of the people they are promoting to.

Do I consider it ethical for people to get volume discounts on things like cds and books? Absolutely.

See above.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Do I consider it ethical for people to get paid speaking fees for sharing their expertise with others? Absolutely.

Do I consider it ethical for people to get volume discounts on things like cds and books? Absolutely.

So where do you draw the line? What if they did make $70k from tools and say $50k from amway products. Would that be ok?

 

[icerat]

So where do you draw the line? What if they did make $70k from tools and say $50k from amway products. Would that be ok?

Depends on where it was from. For example, speakers fees from ones own group should be minimal, but if you're in demand as a speaker from other Amway organisations, or outside Amway, then as far as I'm concerned there is no limit, earn what you can.

Similarly with tapes/cds etc. They're really just another product moving through your own network. What's important isn't really how much profit you're making from them as the profitability of people buying them. They're an expense, and as such the amount spent on them should naturally be limited by how much income they're helping generate - which is the advice Amway has given for years. If that advice is followed then any upline profit is naturally kept at a relatively low proportion compared to Amway profit.

What's often missed though is that folk who have made really "big" money from tools, like Britt/Yager, have done so primarily because they were selling their tools and services outside their own Amway groups, both to crossline groups like Puryear etc and also to downline groups that were so far away from them as they were effectively making nothing from them through their Amway business.

I see no ethical problem with profiting from that either, however there are clear perception problems, particularly since many people have this misconception that Amway operates as some "endless chain". This isn't true. The great majority of people using the Britt/Yager system are effectively not part of Britt or Yager's Amway groups (they may be downline, yes, but they do not make Amway profit from them).

Where I think ethical problems have arisen is where speakers are speaking primarily to their own groups and profiting from it, or over-promoting tools to their own groups and profiting from it. This is particularly an issue when the level of profit is determined not by volume but by past Amway achievement level. Such a model disconnects tool profitability from Amway profitability and indeed, if your Amway group decreases in size it makes tools an increasingly more important factor in your own profitability - leading to an obvious temptation to overpromote them.

 

[Tex2]

So where do you draw the line? What if they did make $70k from tools and say $50k from amway products. Would that be ok?

You don't have to draw the line, it's already been drawn. Rich DeVos drew it in 1983, with the "Directly Speaking" recordings that are online, but never enforced. The number is 20%. Beyond that, the tail starts wagging the dog. Your 50/70 figure is 7 TIMES more than the limit Rich drew, and is still several times LESS than what many LCKs make regarding the proportion between tools and Amway. Also keep in mind ibofb doesn't count "speaking fees" as tools, even though the money leaves the IBOs' pockets and enters the upline for both. Why you continue to debate this rather than take action is beyond me, Newton.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Why you continue to debate this rather than take action is beyond me, Newton.

What action? I'm not involved with amway or tools in any way other than arguing on the internet.

You could argue that posting here is the action I'm taking, to help warn people off.

Lurkers, you have been warned

 

[Tex2]

Depends on where it was from. For example, speakers fees from ones own group should be minimal, but if you're in demand as a speaker from other Amway organisations, or outside Amway, then as far as I'm concerned there is no limit, earn what you can. >>>> No, it doesn't matter where it's from, it depends if the LCKs were HONEST about it. Since they aren't, it's a major issue. Speaking for other groups is merely "cross pollinating between groups, and doesn't make it right. The proper "cross pollinization" should be allowing IBOs to attend a local major function, regardless of LOA/LOS. Speaking fees are no different than CD, book, voice mail, web sites, etc., they are all money coming out of IBO pockets and into the upline LCK pockets. Outside Amway speaking is VERY unusual, and not even worth mentioning, that's just a red herring issue.

Similarly with tapes/cds etc. They're really just another product moving through your own network. What's important isn't really how much profit you're making from them as the profitability of people buying them. They're an expense, and as such the amount spent on them should naturally be limited by how much income they're helping generate - which is the advice Amway has given for years. If that advice is followed then any upline profit is naturally kept at a relatively low proportion compared to Amway profit. >>>> Tapes/CDs are a similar issue, they also rip off IBOs and mislead them where the real money is being made. Tools are NOT "just another product moving through your own network", IBOs don't make any money from them like they do with Amway products, until they get to Platinum. If the truth was being told about the tool profit, THEN it wouldn't matter how much was being made from them, and most upline LCKs promote tools beyond what Amway "advises", because Amway has it buried in the rules/registration form, and the IBOs get POUNDED with the message to buy tools constantly. This results in VERY high tool profit. If it isn't high, the upline should open their books and PROVE it, as they would have NOTHING to be ashamed of.

What's often missed though is that folk who have made really "big" money from tools, like Britt/Yager, have done so primarily because they were selling their tools and services outside their own Amway groups, both to crossline groups like Puryear etc and also to downline groups that were so far away from them as they were effectively making nothing from them through their Amway business. >>>> Point? You mean when your group gets bigger, you are entitled to rip them off? ABSURD!!!

I see no ethical problem with profiting from that either, however there are clear perception problems, particularly since many people have this misconception that Amway operates as some "endless chain". This isn't true. The great majority of people using the Britt/Yager system are effectively not part of Britt or Yager's Amway groups (they may be downline, yes, but they do not make Amway profit from them). >>>> It is an ethical, moral, and probably a LEGAL problem.

Where I think ethical problems have arisen is where speakers are speaking primarily to their own groups and profiting from it, or over-promoting tools to their own groups and profiting from it. This is particularly an issue when the level of profit is determined not by volume but by past Amway achievement level. Such a model disconnects tool profitability from Amway profitability and indeed, if your Amway group decreases in size it makes tools an increasingly more important factor in your own profitability - leading to an obvious temptation to overpromote them.

>>>> This is a part, but only a part, of the issue.

 

[Tex2]

What action? I'm not involved with amway or tools in any way other than arguing on the internet.

You could argue that posting here is the action I'm taking, to help warn people off.

Lurkers, you have been warned

You know what action. Have you notified the FTC, FBI, media, Senator/Congress person, local DA, police, etc, and encourage others to do the same? Since you know a lot, spill the beans how much was paid out for tapes, books, functions, web sites, voice mail, etc. You could be a MUCH bigger help than merely posting on an obscure forum.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You know what action. Have you notified the FTC, FBI, media, Senator/Congress person, local DA, police, etc, and encourage others to do the same? Since you know a lot, spill the beans how much was paid out for tapes, books, functions, web sites, voice mail, etc. You could be a MUCH bigger help than merely posting on an obscure forum.

That sounds like a complete waste of time. I'm not a fan of law enforcement action in cases like this as I think people need to more skeptical and not fall for this stuff. I want a society that is more free, not one where more activities are restricted. Caveat Emptor!

Education on critical thinking skills is the solution here not law enforcement.

 

[Porkchopjim]

It's only fair and natural that Amway distributors, once they reach a certain level, should have their downline pay to hear them speak.

After all, while that individual's self-consumption business is about as large as everyone else's, that person's downline group is what qualifies them at the magical levels. Once they qualify, they get an even bigger cut of the work that their downline has done buying their own products. Now – there's nothing wrong with that. Having upline qualify at a higher bonus level doesn't cost an individual Amway business owner one red cent more (unless, of course, there's a 'big push' to help the upline 'qualify' so downline is pressured to make additional purchases to make that happen...but, of course, that NEVER happens...) - those downline Amway business owners have already kissed that money goodbye and will never see it again.

So it only makes sense that once that upline business owner has 'qualified', and makes more rebate money through additional percentages and bonuses, that the same upline business owner should now charge a 'little extra' to downline for guidance and support!

Some people even go so far as to claim that there is statistical evidence that paying that extra money to upline helps them with their Amway business.

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for moderated thread.

Some other people think that the information sold to them on CDs and such is 'very valuable' (that would be Tex2) - when it has been proven that used Amway CDs tend to cost less than blank CDs: just having that Amway drivel on them makes them less valuable than blanks! That same group of Amway wizards think that they make a profit from buying products from Amway - no selling needed!

 

[Tex2]

That sounds like a complete waste of time. I'm not a fan of law enforcement action in cases like this as I think people need to more skeptical and not fall for this stuff. I want a society that is more free, not one where more activities are restricted. Caveat Emptor!

Education on critical thinking skills is the solution here not law enforcement.

If we lived in a laissez faire society, I would agree with you. However, there is a clear expectation the government addresses abuses like these, such as the Madoff issue. Also, we pay TAX DOLLARS for regulation enforcement, and we should EXPECT these types of issues are acted upon. The LCKs hide behind the FTC "approval" of the Amway business, using it as a shield. It would be FAR better for the FTC to not exist, such that folks would do more of their own checking.

The FTC themselves told me they would act if more people complained, and I have to believe the other agencies I mentioned would act if they received additional input.

Why NOT describe what you know about the level of tool profit?

 

[Porkchopjim]

Some people may just have admit that they made REALLY poor choices, were taken advantage of because they were greedy (the main scam hook: greed), and get on with their less than stellar lives instead of running around begging other people to complain on their behalf.

I'd bet a donut that if someone HAD made any money in Amway and got a cut of that 'tool profit' – there'd be a slightly different story.

 

[caglvo]

My parents were in Amway when I was in middle school. True, they didn't make a lot of dough, but they got out and tried new things and met new people, some that they are still friends with. They even still buy some of the products, although I think they are super-overpriced and not worth it. Anyway, I think they had a good experience even if they didn't become supreme Diamond Executive Platinum Plus or whatever they call it now.

Tapes... ha! It's been a long time since I've seen or heard those!

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'd bet a donut that if someone HAD made any money in Amway and got a cut of that 'tool profit' – there'd be a slightly different story.

More than likely you're right. There have been a few people that realized how screwed up the whole thing is and bailed so he could have ended up that way.

Most of the higher pins that I've met have been fairly good at reading and manipulating people as well as being able to spin things in their favor. Tex strikes me as more of a straight shooter. Think Bill Lumberg vs. Peter Gibbons.

Icerat on the other hand has diamond written all over him...

 

[Tex2]

Some people may just have admit that they made REALLY poor choices, were taken advantage of because they were greedy (the main scam hook: greed), and get on with their less than stellar lives instead of running around begging other people to complain on their behalf. >>>> This isn't about "some people", it is about MILLIONS of decent people who were lied to about a business model. And I'm not begging anyone, I'm making suggestions on how to do something PRODUCTIVE rather than bitch and moan on a forum.

I'd bet a donut that if someone HAD made any money in Amway and got a cut of that 'tool profit' – there'd be a slightly different story.

You would be coughing up a donut.

 

[Porkchopjim]

Man, I enjoyed that donut I won!

Here's some more tips to help:

1. Stop selling, buying and using Amway products.

2. Stop pretending that the Amway 'training system tools' contain 'valuable information' when they perpetuate dependency on the 'system' while reinforcing and ensuring failure. They don't even have the decency to 'train' an IBO how to recognize whether they're losing or making money.

3. Stop pretending that if it weren't for the 'tool scam' that Amway would be a viable 'residual income life on the beach' business.

4. Stop pretending that if it weren't for the 'tool scam' you would be enjoying the 'residual income life on the beach' lifestyle.

5. Stop trying to vindicate the over $40K you lost in Amway by begging people to 'do something' - thereby 'proving' that it wasn't your poor choices and other shortcomings that caused such a stunning failure.

It only takes one really viable complaint from a reliable source to start an investigation...so either one of the two (or both) of the criteria haven't been met.

Once again, selling people useless 'Amway Tools' isn't illegal. Funny, but not illegal.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Calling them tools is the funny part. Cult indoctrination materials would be a more accurate description.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I spent about 1/2 hour yesterday talking on the phone with a diamond. It was pretty much a complete waste of time because he wouldn't answer any questions about the size of his business, how much money he makes etc. The way these guys talk is all spin and bs. Bottom line he considered the size of his business and income level to be so personal he would never share it with anyone INCLUDING HIS OWN SON who is an active amway distributor! He said even when talking with other diamonds they never talk about income even in the context of "hey check out my new car it cost $X" or whatever. Personally I think he was lying to me constantly but he didn't say much so I can't pin him down on anything as he simply wouldn't give me anything interesting.

Bottom line is what except for the whistleblowers I have yet to meet a single amway distributor who will talk about their income, even off the record.

Kinda makes you think eh?