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I realized that my example with the CSI back fired to some extent I don't know enough about people misunderstanding that program to have an opinion actually except that I believe CSI and other programs should try to be clear what is true or not.
I think this goes to the heart of the two distinct views that always seem to coalesce out of this discussion.
For some of us entertainment does not have to be truthful, does not have to be accurate and so on, for others they want their entertainment to be truthful.
I love fiction, I love being fooled, I love a TV show or an author that gets me to suspend my disbelief, that to me makes for great entertainment. I want entertainment to be as free from any externally imposed restrictions as possible. I can watch a TV show that treats magic as real, or uses pseudo-science, if it's good entertainment.
I just see Brown as an entertainer - someone who peddles a fiction.
Do you see no problem with Derren Brown because of this? Do you believe he is a good skeptic when he does almost nothing to stop misunderstandings due to his performances?
For me it is simple. I don't like when people believe in psychics, quantum whatever, dowsing, psedo psychology etc.
I see problems with Sylvia Brown, Chopra and also Derren Brown due to this. We can of course say in all those cases that the people that are fooled are the only problem but I can't really see that Derren Brown, while doing almost nothing to change the misunderstanding, should be less the cause of the misinformation compared to the other ones.
Yes, and this is exactly why the worried-about-peoples-well-being part of me hopes Derren will make a public, far reaching, clear cut statement in the near future regarding this NLP/psychology business. Because not every one will buy his book.
But this is just a part of me. A far bigger part of me feels his disclaimer is enough. I've believed in tons of woo in my life. Some was misinterpretations from my part, some was absolute manipulation of a mind not used to thinking critically. But I don't blame other people for it, no! I had every opportunity to find out more, as do people who believe in Derren's explanations. If they don't do their homework, it's their bad, not Derren's.
Once again, to go back to the OP. If he had not written this one book where he comes clear on several aspects, I'd feel he would have more responsibility. But the book is enough for me to let him 'off the hook'. And this is, where in the end I believe we differ in opinion. No problem for me.
What happens is, he brings someone in, tells them he's bought them a present, but sits down to have a chat with them first. He had previously told this person to write down his ideal birthday present in an envelope and bring it with him (sealed of course). Brown's voiceover lets the audience know that he's attempting to make this fellow think that the present Brown has brought them - which is in a large box in the room - is the one thing this person always wanted, which is a child's BMX bicycle. He then - allegedly - manages to do that, using the NLP method called "anchoring" - he first tells the person to recall what it feels like to see something in a store that he suddenly absolutely must have, and informs him to keep that feeling in mind. He then proceeds to talk to the man, tapping him on the arm at seemingly random points, except the taps are actually made during certain bike-related phrases. For instance, instead of saying "buy or by", Brown says "bike" and taps the subject on the arm while doing so. Also whenever the sounds B, M, or X appear, he taps as well. During words like "saddle" or "handle" or "bar" he does the same thing. The net effect is that at the end of the conversation he asks the man what he's always dreamed of having, and the man immediately says "a BMX bike". The man is so adamant that's what he wants that he even swears it's what he's written down in the envelope - even though it isn't.
Aside from Brown's neat video I've never seen any evidence this actually works. But it is part and parcel of NLP, whether he says it in so many words or not - just like astral projection is part and parcel of "psychic ability", whether the astral projector uses the word "psychic" or not, or whether he claims to endorse other components of psychic ability like telekenesis or telepathy or not.
It's just that I was worried that in citing only certain parts of his writing (especially on a Forum where many members do know what BS most of NLP is) you were giving an inadequate and unfair view into the whole context from which those examples are just a tiny part.
Having looked at a number of your responses to the posts of others I'm starting to wonder if you actually bother to read what others write.
There's not much point entering a debate if all you can consider is your own opinion. That's a waste of your time and, more importantly, a waste of other people's time.
Tapio said:
Thus possibly alienating people from reading the book, people who could genuinely find it educating in ways I think most of us can agree to be worthwhile.
Oh, but you're quite happy to risk alienating people from the book who don't share your particular world view
Tapio said:
So I would've hoped you could've cited also some of his warnings and not too flattering lines on NLP as well. Nothing more. Please, let's not start a hassle over this. I appreciate what you did. Would've only added something more to make it a bit more balanced in my perspective. No need to pursue this matter further.
And not only do you want to portray my view as biased and incorrect, once you've done that you've decided the matter is over and done?
And again, I did say this:-
Microdot said:
Yes, yes he does, and despite pouring derision on NLP and it's proponents he STILL sees fit to educate his readers on those parts of it which he has found to work.
Perhaps you might like to go back and read it and try to understand it?
And again, to reproduce the entire book here just to satisfy the particular standards that you think should apply to this thread would contravene copyright law, which I'm pretty sure would also contravene the rules of these forums.
Tapio said:
Could you elaborate on how what I've written here seems one-sided? It has definitely not been my intention.
Bits and pieces from various different sources are weld together to form a solid base which to build your view on. It demands courage to do this, and I think Derren has shown a great example.
Fine - if he want's to cherry pick the stuff he has success with then good luck to him. What I find offensive is the way that he glibly derides the opinions of others as he goes, as if to say he is superior in some way.
Tapio said:
That annoys me too sometimes. And were it not that he'd written Tricks Of The Mind, I think in this regard I'd be standing next to Stan. But he has written it. And in that book gives more of himself than in any single show or interview could ever be possible. So when people start flipping about him being 'the real deal', the book's always there to (hopefully) bring them back to their senses.
I think we are just on different sides of this so the best we can do is agree to disagree - I have no problem at all with entertainers lying to me, (because I really don't consider that what they are doing is lying as we usually use the word), whilst you do have a problem with that, at least in the case of magicians.
What happens is, he brings someone in, tells them he's bought them a present, but sits down to have a chat with them first. He had previously told this person to write down his ideal birthday present in an envelope and bring it with him (sealed of course). Brown's voiceover lets the audience know that he's attempting to make this fellow think that the present Brown has brought them - which is in a large box in the room - is the one thing this person always wanted, which is a child's BMX bicycle. He then - allegedly - manages to do that, using the NLP method called "anchoring" - he first tells the person to recall what it feels like to see something in a store that he suddenly absolutely must have, and informs him to keep that feeling in mind. He then proceeds to talk to the man, tapping him on the arm at seemingly random points, except the taps are actually made during certain bike-related phrases. For instance, instead of saying "buy or by", Brown says "bike" and taps the subject on the arm while doing so. Also whenever the sounds B, M, or X appear, he taps as well. During words like "saddle" or "handle" or "bar" he does the same thing. The net effect is that at the end of the conversation he asks the man what he's always dreamed of having, and the man immediately says "a BMX bike". The man is so adamant that's what he wants that he even swears it's what he's written down in the envelope - even though it isn't.
Aside from Brown's neat video I've never seen any evidence this actually works. But it is part and parcel of NLP, whether he says it in so many words or not - just like astral projection is part and parcel of "psychic ability", whether the astral projector uses the word "psychic" or not, or whether he claims to endorse other components of psychic ability like telekenesis or telepathy or not.
Derren is a magician. A magician's bread and butter is misdirection and dual reality. Derren is a master at that. That's what makes him one of the best magicians.
First off, NLP is never ever said by Derren. It may be hinted, but it is never said. NLP is mentioned by the person who posted the video. When I first saw this, I wasn't thinking he was hinting of NLP, I was thinking he was hinting of subliminals or PWA. Yes, he leads you believe this, but that's his job.
I'm going to guess that it's none of these. Here's how I would pull it off.
I can bet you that the way it's done is that the guy always really did want a BMX bike and Derren found out before the segment was taped. As to making forget what he wrote, that's simple suggestion. It works extremely well under certain conditions, for example, in a performance setting that Derren set himself in. Further, the actor (I forgot his name), might have been very suggestible.
For example, I do a card trick where one person picks a card. She looks at it, then I show it to the audience. What she says the card is and what the audience says the card is are two different cards. Within five minutes, she is realizes that she made a mistake and remembered the wrong card. It's not hard, it's not magic, it's not NLP. It's our faulty memories, confusion and a little suggestion.
Or, it might be simpler than that. It could be a simple switch. His writing could be forged, put in a forged signed envelope, and Derren switched it before the taping.
Throw in a little research and you've got a trick.
It just seems to me that people who don't like Derren are saying something akin to "think of the children". People are going to be fooled, that's his job. He is paid to deceive. If someone else posts his video and calls it NLP or whatever, it's not Derren's fault. And if someone sees that video and doesn't bother
He's not asking for money to "learn his methods", he's doing what the people are paying him to do: astound and deceive. Sorry, that's his job.
So he leads you to believe one thing, but does another to produce the effect. All magicians, (the good ones) do it. Derren does come clean in every show, though. Yes, his disclaimer is enough. More than enough. He tells you outright what he is doing. If someone ignores it or thinks it's CYA, then sorry, that's their fault.
I believe that someone who thinks what Derren says he does in his shows are true, then that person hasn't bothered to think critically in the first place. They might as well believe that Criss can levitate or walk on water.
I believe that someone who thinks what Derren says he does in his shows are true, then that person hasn't bothered to think critically in the first place.
Derren is a magician. A magician's bread and butter is misdirection and dual reality. Derren is a master at that. That's what makes him one of the best magicians.
First off, NLP is never ever said by Derren. It may be hinted, but it is never said. NLP is mentioned by the person who posted the video. When I first saw this, I wasn't thinking he was hinting of NLP, I was thinking he was hinting of subliminals or PWA. Yes, he leads you believe this, but that's his job.
I'm going to guess that it's none of these. Here's how I would pull it off.
I can bet you that the way it's done is that the guy always really did want a BMX bike and Derren found out before the segment was taped. As to making forget what he wrote, that's simple suggestion. It works extremely well under certain conditions, for example, in a performance setting that Derren set himself in. Further, the actor (I forgot his name), might have been very suggestible.
For example, I do a card trick where one person picks a card. She looks at it, then I show it to the audience. What she says the card is and what the audience says the card is are two different cards. Within five minutes, she is realizes that she made a mistake and remembered the wrong card. It's not hard, it's not magic, it's not NLP. It's our faulty memories, confusion and a little suggestion.
Or, it might be simpler than that. It could be a simple switch. His writing could be forged, put in a forged signed envelope, and Derren switched it before the taping.
Throw in a little research and you've got a trick.
It just seems to me that people who don't like Derren are saying something akin to "think of the children". People are going to be fooled, that's his job. He is paid to deceive. If someone else posts his video and calls it NLP or whatever, it's not Derren's fault. And if someone sees that video and doesn't bother
He's not asking for money to "learn his methods", he's doing what the people are paying him to do: astound and deceive. Sorry, that's his job.
So he leads you to believe one thing, but does another to produce the effect. All magicians, (the good ones) do it. Derren does come clean in every show, though. Yes, his disclaimer is enough. More than enough. He tells you outright what he is doing. If someone ignores it or thinks it's CYA, then sorry, that's their fault.
I believe that someone who thinks what Derren says he does in his shows are true, then that person hasn't bothered to think critically in the first place. They might as well believe that Criss can levitate or walk on water.
I believe you are wrong. Darren Brown doesn't present his show the way Criss Angel does, where both the home audience as well as his "street marks" are supposed to be deceived. Oh, he does that occasionally; but the format of segments such as the above video clip is where the person IN the video clip is being deceived, and he's exposing the "secret" behind the trick to the home audience - "I tricked this person, and now I'm going to show you all how/why I was able to do it." Except his "explanation" is woo.
Did you even read his interview with Jamy Ian Swiss, posted earlier in this thread? He says that NLP is part of what he does. I suppose that interview was meant to be a trick on the audience (being, whoever reads it) as well? Was that an instance of his being "paid to entertain?"
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I don't know enough about people misunderstanding that program to have an opinion actually except that I believe CSI and other programs should try to be clear what is true or not.
