Derren Brown is no different than Uri Gellar.

[psychictv]

Hahaha, that BMX trick is awesome. How could you not like that? Nowhere does he say NLP or "anchoring" or anything of the sort. Does he? Maybe he did and I forgot because he hypnotized me to think otherwise.

 

[Kiosk]

I was being flippant, I do hope Debbie doesn't read here(!)

I agree, he was of his day and in fact he was an 'entertainer' too. I remember watching one of his shows as a wee lad. I was probably somewhere between 7 and 12, in those days Saturday night TV series seemed to go on for years, and I never, ever once thought that anything he did wasn't anything but a 'trick'. I wanted to learn those tricks because I knew that he wasn't actually making stuff disappear.

Paul Daniels was/is a very weird man. Am I the only Brit here who remembers that Halloween show from the late 80s, where he seemed to fake his own death live on the BBC?

He was doing an old escapology trick, handcuffed in an iron maiden with a timer attached, with the spiked door due to slam when the sands ran out. The sands ran out, the door slammed, there was a brief moment of silence, then a voice came over the in-studio PA saying "ladies and gentlemen, would you please make your way to the exits quickly and quietly." Fade to black, end of show. Happy halloween!

It was hours later when he finally appeared in a short clip, saying "ha, you thought I was dead, well that goes to show you should never believe everything you see!" It looked very rushed, and was jammed into the schedule very late, just before a Monty Python repeat (and long after most of his audience would have gone to bed). To this day I'm still not sure that he didn't just screw up the trick, and because it was live he had to somehow style his way out of it. I was at school with one of his nephews at the time, and the following Monday he assured us that PD hadn't even told his family - all watching live - what was going to happen. Either he's one sick mother, or he really didn't want to admit that he blew it.

Er, sorry for the derail. I was just reminded of that story, and thought it sort of, kind of, vaguely fitted here... ethics in magic, that kind of thing... I dunno. Good story, though.

 

[Tapio]

I have really no idea what you mean. Look for example at the bmx trick. Derren says he is using methods used in NLP. It is of course a only a trick and his explanation is BS but he definitely says nothing that is against NLP.

Btw, at what point in the video he claims he's using anchoring and/or NLP? I haven't got my hard disk with me to check it out straight from the series, and I'm not sure if the YT clip ends abruptly... because at least I couldn't hear any mention of these things...

LandR, glad to hear your POV. Your last sentence struck me:

I can understand that this is difficult to blame Derren Brown for as it's largely out of his control how people interpret and mis-represent his work, but I do think he definitely takes advantage of that misunderstanding to keep getting people into theatres to watch his show.

(bolding mine)

What makes you think all the people buying tickets to watch him perform are like the people you described earlier (believing Derren is 'the real thing'). I really suggest, if you at any point from now on hear somebody claiming Derren Brown is using magic, NLP, psychic abilities etc. to kindly ask them to READ HIS BOOK TRICKS OF THE MIND. After reading that, if somebody still believes in this stuff...well...just can't get all.

 

[andycal]

Paul Daniels was/is a very weird man. Am I the only Brit here who remembers that Halloween show from the late 80s, where he seemed to fake his own death live on the BBC?

Didn't see that! Very strange. I remember a documentary where he came over as extremely bizzare, but I guess his was swift fall from grace. His series ran for 15 years I believe and then he was just gone.

 

[Meed]

I have also encountered, unfortunately, people who recommend NLP books / courses etc because it's what Derren Brown does. So, even if Derren Brown doesn't attribute his skills to NLP there seems to be, in my experience, a widespread belief that this is how he accomplishes his act.

Sad that when I search "derren brown" on youtube the first result is "Derren Brown NLP" and the first playlist result is "Derren Brown & NLP". The first "Sponsored Link" is "D Brown - Mind Control: Mind Blowing Techniques Revealed
It's What You Really Want to Know ! www.subliminalpersuasion.co.uk"

No such nonsense if I search for "criss angel" or "david copperfield".

 

[LandR]

Derren Brown

Tapio,

I have no evidence to support that, obviously, it is only my opinion based on the experiences and discussions I have had with people who watch his shows and go to see him live.

In my experience the people I know who will go and see Derren Brown would never consider going to a more traditional magic show where it is clear it is just tricks. Perhaps though this is just down to Derren Brown being a better showman than his peers and deserves the audiences he gets.

I know not all people in the audience will believe his 'act'. Maybe I just need to have more faith in peoples intelligence

 

[Tapio]

Sad that when I search "derren brown" on youtube the first result is "Derren Brown NLP" and the first playlist result is "Derren Brown & NLP". The first "Sponsored Link" is "D Brown - Mind Control: Mind Blowing Techniques Revealed
It's What You Really Want to Know ! www.subliminalpersuasion.co.uk"

No such nonsense if I search for "criss angel" or "david copperfield".

Yeah, I agree that's sad. But definitely not his fault.

ETA: LandR, welcome to the forums!

 

[StanBearclaw]

I don't know why everyone is getting so caught up on the term "NLP"

NLP isn't a real thing. It's like arguing that a house is haunted by ghosts instead of specters.

It's all super-psychology. Who cares what brand name someone is using?

 

[microdot]

Seems to me there's a semantic problem here. DB has claimed to use methods used in NLP (as well as other psychology), yes. But he has not claimed to use/practice NLP as a whole. See the difference? The fact that he uses methods used also in other areas does not automatically make him a 'believer' or a proponent of the whole from which these tiny pieces have been borrowed. At least not to me.

In his book TRICKS of the MIND Derren explains to the reader in detail the following NLP techniques:-

Swish Patterns - (which he calls Playing with Pictures - pages 190 to 194)
Fast Phobia Cure (which he calls Phobia Cure - pages 195 to 202)
Swish Patterns again (in a section on Self Confidence - pages 210 to 212)

 

[Tapio]

I don't know why everyone is getting so caught up on the term "NLP"

NLP isn't a real thing. It's like arguing that a house is haunted by ghosts instead of specters.

It's all super-psychology. Who cares what brand name someone is using?

I care, because NLP is what DB is being accused of endorsing here, and it is not (to my knowledge) true. Truth for truth's sake, remember?

Microdot:

Yes, that he does. But for fairness sake do also post the number of times and the harshness of words with which he reminds the reader of what he thinks of NLP as a whole. This is the point. It's hard for me to understand why you are trying to make his use of some methods also used in NLP a black and white issue. Well, actually he's almost black (maybe very 'dark grey') to the side of verbally casting all NLP to the darkest pits. It's only these small points you bring up that he shares as useful (which they are, at least in my experience with several people).

 

[LandR]

I care, because NLP is what DB is being accused of endorsing here, and it is not (to my knowledge) true. Truth for truth's sake, remember?

Perhaps then the problem lies not with Derren Brown but the people who mis-represent his work. It would be nice though if DB came out and acknowledged that these people were pedalling nonsense. I'm not entirely sure though if that is his responsibility. It is a tough one and you can't really judge unless you know that Derren is deliberately being obscure about his methods because he wants people to believe in the psychology shtick (sp?) so they keep buying tickets or alternatively he doesn't think it's his responsibility to debunk things. Maybe he thinks he is just a magician.

Of course he could be completely unaware of the implications of his work and is oblivious to the way people are twisting it. I think this is unlikely though.

ETA: LandR, welcome to the forums!

Thank you

 

[psychictv]

In his book TRICKS of the MIND Derren explains to the reader in detail the following NLP techniques:-

Swish Patterns - (which he calls Playing with Pictures - pages 190 to 194)
Fast Phobia Cure (which he calls Phobia Cure - pages 195 to 202)
Swish Patterns again (in a section on Self Confidence - pages 210 to 212)

And he claims that they work and are the mechanics behind his tricks? I haven't read that book.

 

[Tapio]

And he claims that they work and are the mechanics behind his tricks? I haven't read that book.

Actually these things have to do with the small part of the 'self-help' section of his book. Nothing to do with his tricks. It's mainly stuff helping you to emotionally connect/disconnect with your memories. Good stuff.

 

[Tapio]

Perhaps then the problem lies not with Derren Brown but the people who mis-represent his work. It would be nice though if DB came out and acknowledged that these people were pedalling nonsense.

He's done it, vary blatantly, even harsh. Suggest you read the book.

 

[microdot]

And he claims that they work and are the mechanics behind his tricks? I haven't read that book.

Actually these things have to do with the small part of the 'self-help' section of his book. Nothing to do with his tricks. It's mainly stuff helping you to emotionally connect/disconnect with your memories. Good stuff.

Tapio obviously feels the need to put his spin on the size and relevance of this part of the book

I invite anybody who hasn't read it to do so and come to their own conclusions.

The fact is that after pouring scorn on NLP generally DB then goes on to explain these techniques.

The small part of the self help section as Tapio describes it is actually entitled Tools for Personal Change and is a sub-section of Part Four: Hypnosis And Suggestibility

On page 194, after giving the first explanation of what is clearly a swish pattern, DB writes:-

What appeals to me about these techniques is that they are recreating what you would do naturally anyway...

Page 198, phobia cure:-

But the following technique, credited to Bandler, may be of real use to those of you who suffer from a phobia...The results of this process should feel natural and casual, apart from the fact that the fear won't be there any more.

He goes on to explain how he used this technique successfully on a friend who had a terrible fear of spiders.

Page 212 - swish pattern:-

And it works not because it's a special technique, but rather because it apes very closely what would happen if you felt naturally self-confident in that situation...

So yes, based on that evidence it would appear that he believes these things work.

He doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, claim that they are the mechanics behind his tricks - ETA - at least not in this book.

 

[fredriks]

To clarify, I don't know enough about NLP do know if he is "using" it or not. It is clear to me is that he is suggesting that he is using psedo-psychology in many of his tricks, for example the BMX.

It is possibly that he has written in his book that he is not using psedo-psychology in his tricks but it is nothing he really talk about. Have he ever said in public for example that the bmx trick was a simple magic trick and not psychology?

I think that is my main problem with him. He says he is a sceptic (and I have no reason to disbelieve him) but he lies (misdirection) in his tricks and he does almost nothing (how many have read his book?) to admit that it was just misdirection.

It is just that to me it seems strange that other people needs to debunk the psedo-science of another sceptic. To just say that it is entertainment and tricks is not enough in my opinion.

 

[c4llum]

To clarify, I don't know enough about NLP do know if he is "using" it or not. It is clear to me is that he is suggesting that he is using psedo-psychology in many of his tricks, for example the BMX.

It is possibly that he has written in his book that he is not using psedo-psychology in his tricks but it is nothing he really talk about. Have he ever said in public for example that the bmx trick was a simple magic trick and not psychology?

I think that is my main problem with him. He says he is a sceptic (and I have no reason to disbelieve him) but he lies (misdirection) in his tricks and he does almost nothing (how many have read his book?) to admit that it was just misdirection.

It is just that to me it seems strange that other people needs to debunk the psedo-science of another sceptic. To just say that it is entertainment and tricks is not enough in my opinion.

It's a very difficult situation. Why debunk a sceptic? Is he a sceptic? has he ever claimed to use woo?
From what I've seen and heard, I believe he hasn't claimed to use woo and has even pointed out he doesn't use NLP. Then my question is, why is NLP related to him soo much?
and no, I haven't read his book yet.....though I do have it

 

[fredriks]

It's a very difficult situation. Why debunk a sceptic? Is he a sceptic? has he ever claimed to use woo?
From what I've seen and heard, I believe he hasn't claimed to use woo and has even pointed out he doesn't use NLP. Then my question is, why is NLP related to him soo much?
and no, I haven't read his book yet.....though I do have it

Most Derren Brown tricks I have seen is definitely trying to suggest that he is using psychology to do the trick, the russian roulete, sublimal advertising, the bmx, the latest giraff trick and I am sure I have seen more.

He might not say that he is using NLP but psychological effects is definitely implied and he for example said in the giraff trick that he used a lot of clues.

To find a place on the internet where Derren clearly claims that the explanations is BS is not easy to find (if they even exist) but to find a lot of people believing in the psedo-psychological explanations are very easy.

Many people clearly believes in the explanations and it would be many more if the explanations wasn't debunked at sites like this. I really cant understand your position.

 

[Tapio]

Well put, microdot! I really mean that. I'm happy you took the time to give actual references, as one sided as they were. Regarding my 'personal spin', I think it's fair to say that I have an excessive need to defend anybody who's being misrepresented. And now I don't mean interpretation-wise, but more like accurate phrasing and context. I understand if it bugs you. Nothing personal, ok?

Have you tried the three techniques DB explains in his book? How about the stuff on memory? Probabilities? Critical thinking? Hypnosis? I'm sorry to go on with this, but I still feel you're giving the three NLP-related techniques (used in other psychology as well) too much attention compared to how many pages they are from the total.'

ETA: If I remember correctly, it is not only before these techniques are presented that Brown gives NLP a good bash, but in the midst and in the end as well. Might be wrong, though. Don't have the book with me here and now. AND and BUT I do think there's too much confusion going on regarding DB and NLP and I hope he will address this as soon as possible and in a clear as possible way, preferably through the internet so as many as possible would get the message.

 

[Meed]

Yeah, I agree that's sad. But definitely not his fault.

ETA: LandR, welcome to the forums!

Directly, no. Indirectly, yes.