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CONNIE SONNE, Dowser

As if we can be held responsible for that.
Suppress the truth, it may be misused!


So, your understanding that the claims of those like Connie are hogwash is a working hypothesis?

BJ
Just to butt in here.

Yes.

Given the evidence to date, it is not unreasonable to start with - can't be done the way you think. This does not stop an individual repeatedly engaging with alleged dowsers in a fair fashion. Fair in this sense being a balanced, scientific appraisal of the latest dowsing claim.
 
Serves me right for trying to be too precise I guess. :(
My emphasis was on the "based on the evidence..." or "the evidence suggests that...". I was suggesting that was a better conclusion than "there is no..."

To say that this is about precision pretends that precision will show a difference. And the question all along has been whether one would say "there is no..." based on something other than evidence. If the distinction is between "based on the evidence to date, there is no..." and "based on the voices in my head, there is no...", then you have a point.

I see.
But I haven't rolled Connie's claimed abilities and the possible existence of pararnormal powers together as tightly as that. If Connie has paranormal powers then, certainly, paranormal powers exist. But the converse is not true. If paranormal powers are shown to exist at some time in the future, that does not mean that Connie had these powers.

If paranormal powers are shown to exist at some time in the future, they will be based on an entirely different set of observations than "observations made while allowing free rein to the effects of chance and bias". This means we can effectively ignore the possibility of future observations modifying current observations, because they have nothing to do with each other. You are acting like we cannot say that there is no effect from aspirin on hypertension when a controlled trial shows no difference between the aspirin and placebo group, because some future observations may show that aspirin has the effect of reducing headache.

Again, it serves me right for trying to be too precise.
The emphasis was meant to be on the "evidence" not "at the present time". I would say "there is no evidence that there is X" rather than "there is no X". The first accepts the possibility that evidence might be found in the future. The latter excludes that possibility.

How exactly does the latter exclude that possibility? Surely if evidence is found in the future, a reasonable person changes their opinion on X???!!!

Okay, I get that, and I agree.
Except of course for the bolded word. You cannot conclusively say that that will be true in all cases.

Are you serious? When working with an effect that is amenable to the effects of chance and bias, have we ever managed to forego the effects of chance and bias so that it is later discovered that all those who recovered from a headache were in the treatment group and all those who didn't were in the placebo group?

Yes we do, because it is incompatible with the fact that c was found by M-M to the identical in two different reference frames.

BJ

Based on the information available to us at the current time, the two reference frames appear to be different. This doesn't exclude the possibility that additional information will demonstrate that they are the same.

Linda
 
If paranormal powers are shown to exist at some time in the future, they will be based on an entirely different set of observations than "observations made while allowing free rein to the effects of chance and bias".
But you cannot be one hundred percent certain about that.
You cannot be absolutely one hundred percent certain that present uncontolled observation does not include some paranormal ability mixed in along with the "effects of chance and bias".

Maybe I can make this clearer if I put in some figures:

I'm not sure what success Connie claims, but let's assume it is 2/3. In other words, in uncontrolled tests that she conducts amongst family friends and clients, she claims a 2/3 success rate (instead of a 1/10 success rate) in picking 1 card out of 10. Whose to say - without a controlled trial of her claimed abilities - that 1/2 of this success rate is not due to paranormal powers and 1/2 due to the "effects of chance and bias". Then, if the "effects of chance and bias" are completely removed in the controlled trial, she should then have a success rate of 1/3. But this is 1/3 on average. In a single trial of her claimed ability, and assumiing she does has an average success rate of 1/3 with her paranormal powers, there is still a roughly 8/27 chance she will get all three cards wrong. So how can you even confidentally exclude her having paranormal powers as a result of that one test?

So isn't it more scientific, more correct, to say that "this test failed to disprove the null hypothesis that Connie has no paranormal powers", rather than that "Connie has no paranormal powers".

This means we can effectively ignore the possibility of future observations modifying current observations, because they have nothing to do with each other.
Who knows? There may be someone somewhere at sometime in the future who indeed has paranormal ability mixed in with the "effects of chance and bias".

You are acting like we cannot say that there is no effect from aspirin on hypertension when a controlled trial shows no difference between the aspirin and placebo group, because some future observations may show that aspirin has the effect of reducing headache.
Certainly, all we can say, given a negative result in a controlled trial of the effect of aspirin on hypertension, is that the null hypothesis that "aspirin has no effect on hypertension" has not been disproven.
But - and I may be missing something - I still don't see your analogy in shifting to the effect of aspirin on headache. I don't see that I'm doing anything like that with the question of paranormal powers.

How exactly does the latter exclude that possibility? Surely if evidence is found in the future, a reasonable person changes their opinion on X???!!!
That's right. That's my point. Your previous conclusion that "there is no X" was/is wrong. It would have been more accurate to have said "the evidence to date is that there is no X"

Are you serious? When working with an effect that is amenable to the effects of chance and bias, have we ever managed to forego the effects of chance and bias so that it is later discovered that all those who recovered from a headache were in the treatment group and all those who didn't were in the placebo group?
You said "If we discover something that can reasonably to taken to be paranormal abilities, and we look for the pattern of how it shows up on a macro level, that pattern won't be "people who have little understanding of chance, and of cognitive and other biases, who claim unusual knowledge under uncontrolled conditions but fail to demonstrate anything under controlled conditions".
I've just demonstrated how a 1/3 paranormal ability to pick one card out of ten (in other words, the paranormal ability increases the chances of the person picking the correct card from an average of 1/10 to 1/3), means there is still a roughly 8/27 chance of getting none correct out of 3 trials.
So how can you say "won't"

Based on the information available to us at the current time, the two reference frames appear to be different. This doesn't exclude the possibility that additional information will demonstrate that they are the same.
That could only be so if the point on Earth at which the M-M experiment was carried out was at rest relative to the absolute reference frame (only then* would the travel times** of the two light beams be the same). It would be simple to exclude this possibility by conducting the experiment at two locations simultaneously (or, if you want to deny Earth rotation, one on Earth and one on a rocket travelling out towards the edge of the solar system). They can't both be at rest relative to an absolute reference frame, so if all four travel times are the same, there cannot be an absolute reference frame.

*another possibility is that that point is travelling relative to the absolute reference frame, in a direction 45 degrees to both light beams. But that possibility would also be covered by the follow up experiment suggested.

**the travel times are not actually measured but laser interferometers can detect any difference in the travel times.

BillyJoe
 
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You cannot be absolutely one hundred percent certain that present uncontolled observation does not include some paranormal ability mixed in along with the "effects of chance and bias".

Yes, we can. Dream on, BJ!
Present uncontrolled observations don't make the Earth flat.
 
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Connie Sonne's new website. Not yet in English, but a google translation will do just as well, I think. She doesn't mention the JREF experience.
I don't know if this is supposed to be a piece of Maddie 'evidence'.
 
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But you cannot be one hundred percent certain about that.
You cannot be absolutely one hundred percent certain that present uncontolled observation does not include some paranormal ability mixed in along with the "effects of chance and bias".

Maybe I can make this clearer if I put in some figures:

I'm not sure what success Connie claims, but let's assume it is 2/3. In other words, in uncontrolled tests that she conducts amongst family friends and clients, she claims a 2/3 success rate (instead of a 1/10 success rate) in picking 1 card out of 10. Whose to say - without a controlled trial of her claimed abilities - that 1/2 of this success rate is not due to paranormal powers and 1/2 due to the "effects of chance and bias". Then, if the "effects of chance and bias" are completely removed in the controlled trial, she should then have a success rate of 1/3. But this is 1/3 on average. In a single trial of her claimed ability, and assumiing she does has an average success rate of 1/3 with her paranormal powers, there is still a roughly 8/27 chance she will get all three cards wrong. So how can you even confidentally exclude her having paranormal powers as a result of that one test?

If she has a success rate of 2/3 when 1/10 is expected, this represents an effect size of 1.274. The effects of chance and bias are simply subtracted from the total (after non-linear transformation in order to make the intervals comparable). The power to detect an effect size of 1.274 when our standard is p=0.271 (the probability of not getting all three wrong) is 0.83. That is, there is a 17% chance we will fail to detect paranormal abilities, if Connie has a 67% success rate. Compare this to her claim of 100% accuracy, which gives us a power of .999 to detect her paranormal powers if we ask her to get even just one right, leaving us with a less than 1% chance that we would be wrong to exclude her having paranormal powers.

And this illustrates the problems with the Challenge - the power levels vary depending upon the success rate, and the challengers really do a poor job of guessing at their success rate. Most like to claim that they are at 100%, or at least close. But that means that they set themselves up to fail if their actual success rate is less than that.

However, in the end, it hasn't been relevant, because challengers don't have success rates that exceed chance, just not up to the standards of the challenge. They tend to have success rates that are similar to what is expected due to chance.

So isn't it more scientific, more correct, to say that "this test failed to disprove the null hypothesis that Connie has no paranormal powers", rather than that "Connie has no paranormal powers".

It is correct to say that this test disproved the hypothesis that Connie has a 100% success rate. It would also be correct to say that this test disproved the hypothesis that Connie has a success rate as high as 62% or 70%, depending upon which standard criteria one uses.

Who knows? There may be someone somewhere at sometime in the future who indeed has paranormal ability mixed in with the "effects of chance and bias".

But that's not what I said. I said that one won't be able to use the effects of chance and bias to identify who has paranormal ability.

Certainly, all we can say, given a negative result in a controlled trial of the effect of aspirin on hypertension, is that the null hypothesis that "aspirin has no effect on hypertension" has not been disproven.

Nope. We can also say that it has been proven that aspirin has no clinically significant effect on hypertension. You seem to think that we can only say that we have failed to disprove the null hypothesis. But we can also say what other hypotheses we have disproven. That is, we are able to disprove hypotheses other than the null hypothesis.

But - and I may be missing something - I still don't see your analogy in shifting to the effect of aspirin on headache. I don't see that I'm doing anything like that with the question of paranormal powers.

I know you don't. I am hoping that the use of an example will help. In a placebo-controlled trial of aspirin for the treatment of hypertension (this is a hypothetical examples), you will find some people whose hypertension improved while on aspirin. The same number of people in the placebo group had an improvement in their hypertension. The people that were identified as benefitting from the use of aspirin were really benefitting from the effects of chance and bias. Later, if we discover that some people really do benefit from the effects of aspirin in arthritis, we can't go back and say that those people (identified on the basis of chance and bias) who appeared to benefit from aspirin in the hypertension trial would be the very same people who would benefit from the use of aspirin in arthritis. And that those who did not show improvement in their hypertension while on aspirin would not show improvement in their arthritis. For one thing, you would need to have arthritis in the first place in order to get that benefit.

That's right. That's my point. Your previous conclusion that "there is no X" was/is wrong. It would have been more accurate to have said "the evidence to date is that there is no X"

I'm saying that it's okay to be wrong. Science has no difficulty whatsoever with being wrong. Almost everything science has to say right now will turn out to be wrong. What I'm complaining about is your need to treat this particular situation differently, as though on this one point we are not allowed to be wrong in the same way that we are wrong about everything else.

You said "If we discover something that can reasonably to taken to be paranormal abilities, and we look for the pattern of how it shows up on a macro level, that pattern won't be "people who have little understanding of chance, and of cognitive and other biases, who claim unusual knowledge under uncontrolled conditions but fail to demonstrate anything under controlled conditions".
I've just demonstrated how a 1/3 paranormal ability to pick one card out of ten (in other words, the paranormal ability increases the chances of the person picking the correct card from an average of 1/10 to 1/3), means there is still a roughly 8/27 chance of getting none correct out of 3 trials.
So how can you say "won't"

You're looking at about a 50% chance that she wouldn't get any correct, if her underlying success rate is 33%. However, doesn't this sort of prove my point? She agreed to a claim of 100% success, yet when measured, it has to be something much, much less than that, if we want to pretend that it could still be present. So why would anyone think that uncontrolled conditions have any degree of accuracy?

That could only be so if the point on Earth at which the M-M experiment was carried out was at rest relative to the absolute reference frame (only then* would the travel times** of the two light beams be the same). It would be simple to exclude this possibility by conducting the experiment at two locations simultaneously (or, if you want to deny Earth rotation, one on Earth and one on a rocket travelling out towards the edge of the solar system). They can't both be at rest relative to an absolute reference frame, so if all four travel times are the same, there cannot be an absolute reference frame.

You are assuming that different locations represent different reference frames. What if they don't? What if they turn out to all be part of the same reference frame whose existence we currently have no inkling of - like it turned out that the different types of string theory were all part of M-theory, or that 3 of the 4 fundamental forces are just different manifestations of the same force.

Linda

*another possibility is that that point is travelling relative to the absolute reference frame, in a direction 45 degrees to both light beams. But that possibility would also be covered by the follow up experiment suggested.

**the travel times are not actually measured but laser interferometers can detect any difference in the travel times.

BillyJoe[/QUOTE]
 
dann,

I wish I knew what you are trying to say.
In fact, I wish you knew. :cool:


Linda,

I know you don't. I am hoping that the use of an example will help. In a placebo-controlled trial of aspirin for the treatment of hypertension (this is a hypothetical examples), you will find some people whose hypertension improved while on aspirin. The same number of people in the placebo group had an improvement in their hypertension. The people that were identified as benefitting from the use of aspirin were really benefitting from the effects of chance and bias. Later, if we discover that some people really do benefit from the effects of aspirin in arthritis, we can't go back and say that those people (identified on the basis of chance and bias) who appeared to benefit from aspirin in the hypertension trial would be the very same people who would benefit from the use of aspirin in arthritis. And that those who did not show improvement in their hypertension while on aspirin would not show improvement in their arthritis. For one thing, you would need to have arthritis in the first place in order to get that benefit.
Okay, I give up. I've got no idea how this relates to what I've said.
I'm willing to accept that the problem is mine though.

I'm saying that it's okay to be wrong. Science has no difficulty whatsoever with being wrong. Almost everything science has to say right now will turn out to be wrong. What I'm complaining about is your need to treat this particular situation differently, as though on this one point we are not allowed to be wrong in the same way that we are wrong about everything else.
Science doesn't ever have to be wrong. All it has to do is to qualify everything - not necessarily explicitly - with "the evidence at present supports X". So I'm not intending to treat this particular situation differently. All of science should express appropriate degrees of certainty and uncertainty in all areas according to amount of supporting or unsupporting evidence.

You're looking at about a 50% chance that she wouldn't get any correct, if her underlying success rate is 33%. However, doesn't this sort of prove my point? She agreed to a claim of 100% success, yet when measured, it has to be something much, much less than that, if we want to pretend that it could still be present. So why would anyone think that uncontrolled conditions have any degree of accuracy?
I didn't say uncontrolled conditions have any degree of accuracy. I said they could hide real paranoramal ability. You would be able get an idea about whether or not there is paranormal ability mixed in with all the bias and chance by doing a controlled trial. And, even then, you could not ever be completely certain about what you find.
Assume for a moment that somewhere on Earth there is a person with paranormal ability. No doubt that person would have an exaggerated sense of her own ability because of the necessarily uncontrolled way she has been testing her ability. If, at some future time, she were to undergo a controlled test of her ability, she will either pass or fail the test. But because of the uncertainty of the outcome - because chance plays a role in the outcome of the test (for example Connie had a 1/1000 chance of passing the test) - we would still not be certain this person does or does not have paranormal ability. If the person continually fails, our degree of certainty that this person does not have the ability increases and, if the person continually passes, our degree of certainty that she does have the ability increases.

You are assuming that different locations represent different reference frames. What if they don't? What if they turn out to all be part of the same reference frame whose existence we currently have no inkling of
The only way this can be true is if all motion is an illusion. This is the idea that all the "instantaneous frames" of spacetime exist all at once. The illusion of motion is induced by the fact that the same object is present in a graded series of coordinates in successive frames.

But then there is the idea that all of reality exists only inside the workings of your own brain. That nothing actually exists except in your imagination.

That I am, in fact, a figment of your imagination....

regards,
BillyJoe
 
Linda,

Okay, I give up. I've got no idea how this relates to what I've said.
I'm willing to accept that the problem is mine though.

I don't think that it is your problem (if endless discussions I've had in other threads with other people are any indication). I have been trying to find a way to explain this particular idea for quite a while now in a way that allows it to be understandable. I appreciate the chance to try with you, because at least you want to understand.

Science doesn't ever have to be wrong. All it has to do is to qualify everything - not necessarily explicitly - with "the evidence at present supports X". So I'm not intending to treat this particular situation differently. All of science should express appropriate degrees of certainty and uncertainty in all areas according to amount of supporting or unsupporting evidence.

I don't understand, then, why the statement "there is no X" is not "not necessarily explicitly" qualified with "the evidence at present doesn't support X"?

I didn't say uncontrolled conditions have any degree of accuracy. I said they could hide real paranoramal ability. You would be able get an idea about whether or not there is paranormal ability mixed in with all the bias and chance by doing a controlled trial. And, even then, you could not ever be completely certain about what you find.
Assume for a moment that somewhere on Earth there is a person with paranormal ability. No doubt that person would have an exaggerated sense of her own ability because of the necessarily uncontrolled way she has been testing her ability. If, at some future time, she were to undergo a controlled test of her ability, she will either pass or fail the test. But because of the uncertainty of the outcome - because chance plays a role in the outcome of the test (for example Connie had a 1/1000 chance of passing the test)

No she didn't. If she had the ability (as you stipulated in your example), she would have a 99.9%, 83% or 50% chance of passing the test, per my calculations above, depending upon whether her true success rate was 100%, 2/3 or 1/3. And under controlled conditions, her chances would be even higher, because we would be likely to ask her to perform a test with a larger number of trials (i.e. the power of the test would be even higher), so as to capture success rates even smaller than 1/3. Although it should be noted that success rates lower than 1/3 would represent an effect size less than 0.50 and would not be noticeable above the background of chance and bias - that is, that person would not be inclined to identify themself as someone with paranormal abilities.

- we would still not be certain this person does or does not have paranormal ability. If the person continually fails, our degree of certainty that this person does not have the ability increases and, if the person continually passes, our degree of certainty that she does have the ability increases.

You've made reference to a person with true paranormal ability and our test of that person. Take a step back. How would that person come to our attention, so that we would have the opportunity to test her, in the first place? You said "somewhere on earth". Are you expecting us to perform tests on an average of 3 billion people before finding this one person? And how would you deal with the problem that after testing 3 billion people, we would have found 3 million people with a success rate just as laudable as the one person who actually has paranormal abilities? Would you instead test those people who self-identified as having paranormal abilities? How would that refine our search? Would we be testing maybe 3 million people instead? Then we'd only have 3000 people with results as laudable as the one person who actually has paranormal abilities. And that assumes that you'd even end up testing this one person, as they may not even identify themself as having paranormal abilities if the effect size is small. Is this really going to work? Can you really say that "self-identified paranormal abilities" is a reasonable way to identify those people who actually have paranormal abilities?

The only way this can be true is if all motion is an illusion. This is the idea that all the "instantaneous frames" of spacetime exist all at once. The illusion of motion is induced by the fact that the same object is present in a graded series of coordinates in successive frames.

Think about the way that adding an extra spatial dimensions makes GR and electromagnetism two parts of the same thing (sorta), or the way that string theory unifies all the forces.

But then there is the idea that all of reality exists only inside the workings of your own brain. That nothing actually exists except in your imagination.

That I am, in fact, a figment of your imagination....

regards,
BillyJoe

You'd be taller.

Linda
 
Gzuzkrytz, you are right about both. I can and will demonstrate everything. I can and will ensure you, that Ì have been cheated. I allready have the evidences. Check my name out in first in september. I will get a website where I will put it ALL, also in english. AND all the evidences about Maddie. So you can THEN decide if I´m deluded or not!! I can only say now....most of you people out there are wrong, very wrong. My last words here on this site.

Connie
Anyone remember this?
 
Just done a search. Could not find anything new she has written. Her most common title is "failed psychic". Not one you would want if you were earning money using your psychic talents.
 
Just done a search. Could not find anything new she has written. Her most common title is "failed psychic". Not one you would want if you were earning money using your psychic talents.

I find nothing recent at all with her name. Oblivion, obscurity, ...even her 15 minutes of fame, tainted by calumny and apparent falsehoods.
It's a shame she didn't just make a bunch of friends over this experience, and embrace the truth of what happened. She could have probably written a book about her life, "Failed Psychic Sees the Llight" and made money lecturing as an ex woo-ist. Alas, such is the power of the dowsing bug. I can't picture a belief that I, myself, could hold as strongly in the light of counter evidence.
 
...
It's a shame she didn't just make a bunch of friends over this experience, and embrace the truth of what happened. She could have probably written a book about her life, "Failed Psychic Sees the Llight" and made money lecturing as an ex woo-ist. Alas, such is the power of the dowsing bug. I can't picture a belief that I, myself, could hold as strongly in the light of counter evidence.

According to Connie, the truth that happened was that she was cheated by Banachek. Following her logic, this means she was right.

She does see the light. Brightly. That's why she has the website. According to Connie, she knows the truth of Madeleine McCann. She is right and everyone claiming different is wrong.

That is the world of a believer.



If I were to guess, I'd assume there are some doubts inside her mind. She is obviously not interested in a proper discussion regarding her claims - disabled guestbook - and her whole apperance suggests that she has, to quote Conrad Brean, not thought this through.

Connie surfacing for her 15 minutes was the tip of the tip of the iceberg of irrationality that lurks beneath what we call education. You know horoscopes are still popular, right? And religion. And lotteries.
 
www.conniesonne.dk is my website if you dont know. As you can see, I`m started writing. As I said there, it takes time to write, I still have many things to do. And I still have to translate it all. I will write about how I was cheated, and I will write it here too. But I still write in a sort of cronological order, so you will just have to wait a little while.

Connie
 

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