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Derren Brown is no different than Uri Gellar.

andycal said:
This thread does seem to be falling into an argument about social responsibility and what's acceptible or not. If that's the case then surely there's no answer?

Derren tells everyone that they're being tricked and that he's fooling you with illusion. The announcer on Channel 4 said "Prepare to be fooled" before his lottery show. He's quite up front about it and it's about as far as he could go without actually showing the whole thing, which would defeat the object somewhat.

If you don't like magic then you would have a point, but I actually do like magic and I like to leave a show thinking about 'how he did it'. If someone wants to think that he invoked Rama then that's their look-out, but so far all I've heard from people is "Wow, he's a clever sausage, how did he know that woman had a tatoo on her ankle and worked at WHSmith?"

I'm a big believer in the science agenda and in facts and figures, but I'm also not a robot and having a bit of wonder is actually quite nice. It takes the edge off an otherwise crappy day.
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Entirely agree. I posted earlier that at some point we must allow our children to go out on their own, make their mistakes, and hopefully learn from them. Evidently the anti-Brown brigade here ignore such posts.


M.
 
c4llum said:
'Derren Victor Brown (born 27 February 1971) is an English magician, illusionist, mentalist, painter and sceptic.' - Derren Brown's wikipedia page. Doesn't that say it all?
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Weird how "scientist," "teacher," and "psychologist" aren't on that list -- you know, with all the people that believe he is an authority in those fields and everything...
 
Moochie said:
Entirely agree. I posted earlier that at some point we must allow our children to go out on their own, make their mistakes, and hopefully learn from them. Evidently the anti-Brown brigade here ignore such posts.


M.
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It was ignored because, quite frankly, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

You say we should stand back, let people make mistakes and hope for the best. But where do you draw the line? Do you think people should just stand back while someone squanders thousands of dollars on a psychic? How about if they decide they don't want to vaccinate their kids? Or what about non-woo things? You're not going to intervene if a loved one is a drug addict?
 
MikeSun5 said:
Weird how "scientist," "teacher," and "psychologist" aren't on that list -- you know, with all the people that believe he is an authority in those fields and everything...
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You're arguing that people shouldn't use him as a valid source of information. I agree. Yet it happens. That is the problem.

I really don't get you people. You guys seem to think it's worthwhile to fight for understanding of evolution. But why? How does denying evolution adversely affect anyone? But if Kirk Cameron got a primetime special, I guarantee there would be a 20 page thread panning it, you might even write angry emails to the network or boycott advertisers. All over something that's completely meaningless, except that it undermines science. But even that shouldn't matter, because according to you, since Kirk Cameron isn't a biologist, no one would listen to him.

I don't see how you can defend one and condemn the other.
 
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StanUpshaw said:
But where do you draw the line?
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:rolleyes: I would draw the line way before comparing a fake explanation of predicted lottery numbers to creationsim, anti-vaccine rhetoric, and drug addiction.

I think now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Your arguments and ridiculous comparisons (goatse? really?) have been demolished (or dismissed), and you're really stretching now. Moochie's comment applies perfectly to this situation because magic is NOT THAT SERIOUS. It's frickin magic. The guy does card tricks for F sakes. Card tricks. The man makes goddam balloon animals, bro. And you're worried that he's going to send people to the Dark Side of woo? How? By saying automatic writing and voodoo are responsible for his stunts? By saying that you can predict lottery numbers by asking a bunch of your friends? Seriously??? What exactly is he promoting that you take issue with?

DB is nothing like Uri Geller (save that they both excel at sleight of hand), and his responsibilty for the education of society at large is zero.

DB is harmless. Pick a better target. I could suggest a few...
 
Do you see evolution denial, or any of the countless conspiracy theories as a bad thing? Can you even explain why?

If you can find an answer to that question, then you can see why I have a problem with Brown.
Alternatively, you could just admit you're blinded by your rabid fanboyism.
 
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StanUpshaw said:
Do you see evolution denial, or any of the countless conspiracy theories as a bad thing? Can you even explain why?

If you can find an answer to that question, then you can see why I have a problem with Brown.
Alternatively, you could just admit you're blinded by your rabid fanboyism.
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My answer to your question(s) is "yes."

I still can't see why you have a problem with Brown because you're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing mass religious and paranoid hysteria with the cigarette-through-the-coin trick. They don't EVEN compare. Your claims and comparisons are ridiculous.

Of course, you could just admit you're blinded by jealousy and frustration at not knowing the methods to his tricks.

These people you think are being "duped" by Derren Brown... why would they listen to only one guy and do no further research? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to get more than one opinion before formulating their own?

Oh wait.... you did that with Simon Singh.
 
MikeSun5 said:
The stuff that anti-DB people point at when saying he promotes woo are things that have long been proven to be nonsense. Voodoo, automatic writing, mind reading, etc.
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Really? I thought it was the things that are shown in his most popular youtube videos, suggestion, subliminal advertising and to manage to convince the cashier that he has won money to give some examples.

I cant see any voodoo, automatic writing, mind reading in those tricks.
 
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fredriks said:
Really? I thought it was the things that are shown in his most popular youtube videos, suggestion, subliminal advertising and to manage to convince the cashier that he has won money to give some examples.
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You're right. I was just challenging the claim that he promotes woo. Any person with half a brain and an internet connection can do a simple search and find out that's not how he's accomplishing his tricks. Subliminal advertising doesn't work the way DB's clip shows (I don't think it works at all), and other stuff he claims (like covert hypnosis) aren't even real.

I cant see any voodoo, automatic writing, mind reading in those tricks.
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Nope, you're right again. I was just using those three things as examples because he's used them as part of his explanation patter in the past.

I'm beginning to think that some Derren-Haters are really just fishing for his methods. It's frustrating to not know how he does it. I've studied magic and mentalism for years, so maybe that's why I'm not pissed at (or jealous of) Derren. I've read most of his books, and I have a really old video performance/lecture of his. If you MUST know how he does stuff, send me a PM. Yea, right. I'm not going to tell. Maybe JFrankA will...
 
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MikeSun5 said:
:rolleyes: I would draw the line way before comparing a fake explanation of predicted lottery numbers to creationsim, anti-vaccine rhetoric, and drug addiction.

I think now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Your arguments and ridiculous comparisons (goatse? really?) have been demolished (or dismissed), and you're really stretching now. Moochie's comment applies perfectly to this situation because magic is NOT THAT SERIOUS. It's frickin magic. The guy does card tricks for F sakes. Card tricks. The man makes goddam balloon animals, bro. And you're worried that he's going to send people to the Dark Side of woo? How? By saying automatic writing and voodoo are responsible for his stunts? By saying that you can predict lottery numbers by asking a bunch of your friends? Seriously??? What exactly is he promoting that you take issue with?

DB is nothing like Uri Geller (save that they both excel at sleight of hand), and his responsibilty for the education of society at large is zero.

DB is harmless. Pick a better target. I could suggest a few...
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Well said, I agree. But moreover, I think Derren Brown teaches a very important lesson, one like banachek. He shows how people can be fooled to believe in the paranormal and yet he's just a magician. Just this thread proves that, and he's a sceptic! He's nowhere near Geller's side. The difference is that he does similar work, but he excludes the possibilty of the paranormal. That's what magicians do!

Though I think, what DB does, can easily make people believe in the paranormal if you don't know he's a sceptic and magician!
 
How do you defend this (from the Singh article), assuming true?
"Derren starts by exposing a simple card trick then states that the rest of show will be different: "That is the only trick you are going to see in the next hour. These are not magic tricks. This is mind control."

c4llum said:
Though I think, what DB does, can easily make people believe in the paranormal if you don't know he's a sceptic and magician!
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A lot of people don't consider it paranormal, whereas people who believe in real magic are well aware that what they believe is considered "paranormal". I think that's what makes Brown particularly easy for a lot of people to believe, even if they consider themselves 'skeptics'.
 
cornsail said:
How do you defend this (from the Singh article), assuming true?
"Derren starts by exposing a simple card trick then states that the rest of show will be different: "That is the only trick you are going to see in the next hour. These are not magic tricks. This is mind control."


A lot of people don't consider it paranormal, whereas people who believe in real magic are well aware that what they believe is considered "paranormal". I think that's what makes Brown particularly easy for a lot of people to believe, even if they consider themselves 'skeptics'.
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He was trying to set himself up as a differnt creed of magician. He admits he was wrong,he made a mistake live with it. That was what 6-7 years ago? Does he say it's not a trick now? NO.
Case closed.
 
microdot said:
If you've read Tricks Of The Mind you should be able to work this out for yourself.
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:confused: If you've read my post #319 you'd know I have read the book. That's exactly why I commented on your wondering about DB's believing/not believing in NLP. IMO it was a position too black/white to be adequately representing DB's view in the book.
 
Azrael 5 said:
He was trying to set himself up as a differnt creed of magician. He admits he was wrong,he made a mistake live with it. That was what 6-7 years ago? Does he say it's not a trick now? NO.
Case closed.
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Woof woof.
 
So the idea of just saying, oh, it's all magic tricks, that never felt right to me. But there was definitely a shift in what I wanted to say, and the message I wanted to give out, between the early days of wanting to get established--when I think it does make sense to exaggerate your claims a little--and then to, once I'm there, then it was important to me to clarify the message.
JAMY: But now, that's not an automatic conclusion to draw. Certainly some, getting a tiger by the tail and getting a taste of success, might say, "Oh, in order to continue to increase this, we should ... "
DERREN: "We should be even more ... "
JAMY: "... we should be even more ambiguous. We should be making even more claims. We should be even more controversial." You could have taken that tack, no?
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Bolding mine. In response to cornsail and with special mention to StanUpshaw,I know he loves this jamy Swiss article quoted :D
 
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StanUpshaw said:
You guys seem to think it's worthwhile to fight for understanding of evolution. But why? How does denying evolution adversely affect anyone?
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Creationist activists are trying to fundamentally change public school science curriculum and in doing so they have successfully gotten teachers and administrators fired for teaching evolution. Their efforts are just part of a larger movement to destroy public education and turn the U.S. into a Christian nation.

Now please explain to me how a magician mentioning automatic writing adversely affects anyone. Is Derren Brown lobbying to replace social studies with NLP in English schools?
 
Azrael 5 said:
Bolding mine. In response to cornsail and with special mention to StanUpshaw,I know he loves this jamy Swiss article quoted :D
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I don't mind you posting it, because from my point of view, it only goes to show that he's well aware of the negative influence he has, but has done little to remedy it.

As far as that goes, you could look at it two ways: 1) He feels he has done enough, and it's the audience's fault if they get tricked; or 2) He's knows the effect he's going to have on the audience, but in order to stop from being lumped in with the other purveyors of woo, he cleverly peppers in honesty and skepticism in various places so it makes him seem genuine.

I'm not 100% convinced of either possibility, but I still think both are objectionable, just to different degrees.
 
psychictv said:
Creationist activists are trying to fundamentally change public school science curriculum and in doing so they have successfully gotten teachers and administrators fired for teaching evolution. Their efforts are just part of a larger movement to destroy public education and turn the U.S. into a Christian nation.

Now please explain to me how a magician mentioning automatic writing adversely affects anyone. Is Derren Brown lobbying to replace social studies with NLP in English schools?
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To follow in your slippery slope footsteps, here is my estimation of a possible bad outcome:

Someone sees a Derren Brown show, perhaps the one where he's controlling super models minds. They think "wow, that's pretty awesome, let me check this guy out on YouTube!" So then they click on some more videos and they see "NLP" plastered all over the place. They think, "Hmm, since magic isn't real, THIS must be how Derren's doing it!" Three easy payments of $39.95 later, and he's studying up on the wonderful world of NLP. Then more and more people start to buy in, and who knows what happens from there? Fifty years ago, Scientology was just one dork and his stupid books.

I'm not saying that Derren is leading the charge for the Global Brotherhood of NLP, but he is exposing a whole lot of people to bad information.
 
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