Ed A New Explanation for Paranormal Claims

[microdot]

At the risk of asking a clumsy and possibly irrelevant question, could the increasing use of mobile telephones be of any relevance / have any impact with regard to this type phenomena?

Presumably they emit electromagnetic radiation and are most often used close to the head.

Are they capable of emitting electromagnetic patterns of the type associated with these types of phenomena?

Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree?

 

[Maia]

But the geomagnetic field is always there. There would be no letting down of the feelings of haunting that these people experience. Those who participated in the study would have this feeling before they participated, during, and after. It seems that a study where putting people in a room shielded from the geomagnetic field would yield more decisive results than exposing people to a field they are immersed in all the time!

Well, all I can tell you is what the studies claimed that they'd found, which was that the geomagnetic fields did ebb and flow according to what could be found by magnometers.

Is that not a rather glib answer?

I don't know. But you have to admit, we DO have an abundance of people who claim to have experiences like that.

The people who experience hauntings do not seem to have this experience all the time, but only at special occasions or at special places. Obviously a few experience it all the time, but they are regarded as mentally ill, are they not?

I think we're getting into something very interesting here. Not mental illness, that is, but the correlation between complex partial epileptic signs and paranormal beliefs. In one study, for instance, "the numbers of complex partial epileptic-like signs were moderately (rs = .50) associated with strength of paranormal beliefs" ( Skirda & Persinger, 1993). In another study that attempted to replicate some of the work in which Persinger had been involved, the researchers didn't find consistent results based on weak EMF fields, but they definitely DID find that subjects who had more complex partial epileptic signs (associated with temporal lobe epilepsy) were much more likely to have "paranormal" senses and experiences (French CC, Haque U, Bunton-Stasyshyn R, Davis R, 2008). There's a lot of independent evidence showing a very strong correlation between TLE-type signs and paranormal beliefs/signs/senses/experiences.

Sigh. That's exactly why I can't ever start one of those threads that gets a gazillion replies and goes for eighty trillion pages. I just can't get on a pet theory and stick to it in the face of all evidence, refusing to even consider anything else. The complex partial/TLE theory is also a good fit, although I would definitely not throw out the weak EMF one either. I suspect that it might be a combination of the two in some cases, although of the two theories, the TLE one is supported by the widest range of evidence and has been independently corroborated by the most studies.



I just don't seem to ever be able to get any kind of weird argument going that a bunch of people would disagree vociferously with... any ideas? I did find a study backing up the idea that narcissistic personality disorder is not correlated with belief in the paranormal. Maybe we could do something with that.

Roe CA, Morgan CL.(2002). Narcissism and belief in the paranormal.Psychological Reports. 90(2), 405-411

 

[Kariboo]

Hi Maia

I found this : at http://www.mscd.edu/~crypto/Documents/Volume1 - Booklet.pdf (its a horrible website to read, this part starts at page 18 but the way it is put online the pages jump from left to right. )


Roe and Morgan (Roe, C.A. & Morgan, C.L. (2002). Narcissism and belief in the paranormal. Psychological
Reports, 90, 405‐411. (2002) ) They hypothesized that narcissism, instead, predicts belief in the paranormal. They felt that since narcissistic individuals are more prone to fantasy, then such fantasy tendencies would predict more beliefs in the paranormal. Although significant findings indicated that participants with greater narcissistic tendencies also demonstrated greater belief, testing measures may have created a confound. Questions which were geared towards the individual, (e.g., the participant affirms that he or she has psychic ability) were correlated with narcissism
scores. Other questions which pertained to paranormal phenomenon, but did not deal directly with the activities of the participant, lacked the correlations with narcissism scores. The testing measures may have simply indicated narcissism, and not paranormal beliefs separate from the personal fantasies which narcissistic individuals demonstrate.

Since I don't have access to full articles maybe you would be so kind to look it up and see if this is decent research.

From what I can find online a lot of research points towards a belief in the paranormal having to do with the need to have control over things that you don't really have control over (seeing the future, healing etc). Do you see that as an underlying item as well? (example :
Newby and Davis (2004) also measured correlations found between locus of control and paranormal beliefs. They used Tobacyk’s Revised Paranormal Beliefs Scale, and included the New Age Philosophy and Traditional Paranormal Fears subcategories. As predicted, external locus of control correlated with paranormal beliefs.).

Not so much neurobiological but a psychological need.

Like to hear your thoughts

Back to trying to wade through this pdf

eta, the website in itself seems kinda bogus, just interested in this tidbit of research mentioned in it

 

[microdot]

At the risk of asking a clumsy and possibly irrelevant question, could the increasing use of mobile telephones be of any relevance / have any impact with regard to this type phenomena?

Presumably they emit electromagnetic radiation and are most often used close to the head.

Are they capable of emitting electromagnetic patterns of the type associated with these types of phenomena?

Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree?

Anyone?

 

[blue sock monkey]

Anyone?

As far as I know, the only physiological effect from cell phone use known thus far is a slight increase in body temperature. (Of course, far worse effects have been claimed.)

 

[staunch]

Magnetic anomaly, the article starts on page #2

http://ukskeptics.com/newsletters/2009-2.pdf

 

[steenkh]

Magnetic anomaly, the article starts on page #2

http://ukskeptics.com/newsletters/2009-2.pdf

Interesting study.

I wonder if this means that the reports of haunting in the Tapestry Room only started with the installation of electricity in the castle?

 

[pakeha]

Thanks for the link to that UKSkeptics article, steenkh.

 

[Dr B]

This is an interesting topic and one that has been discussed here a few years ago at length (I have vague memories of having a discussion on this here). It has also been discussed over on the UK-Skeptics website.

I've done some field study work and provide some refs below for interested parties. I am increasingly skeptical of Persingers stuff - it may have merit, but if it does it only seems to apply to a very small minority of cases in the wild so to speak. I have only ever encountered two instances where reasonably odd magnetic fields have been detected in cases of a reputed haunting. One of these had nothing whatsoever to do with the house wiring - so please dont all fall into that trap!

The evidence for infrasound is also not really there when you take a very close look....

With colleagues we are now planning to use the fields measured from field-studies and apply these to the brains of observers via the Persinger method. This will hopefully also be done double-blind (but depends on the funding we get).


Braithwaite, J. J. (2008). Towards a cognitive neuroscience of the dying brain. The [UK] Skeptic, 21(2), 8-16.

Braithwaite, J.J. (2008) Putting Magnetism in its Place: A Critical Examination of the Weak-Intensity Magnetic field Account for Anomalous Haunt-type Experiences. Journal For the Society of Psychical Research.

Braithwaite, J.J, & Townsend, M (2008) Sleeping With the Entity; Part II: Temporally Complex Distortions in the Magnetic field from Human Movement in a Bed Located in an English Castles Reputedly Haunted Bedroom. European Journal of Parapsychology. 23.1, 90-126.

Braithwaite, J.J. (2006) Using digital magnetometry to quantify anomalous magnetic fields associated with spontaneous strange experiences: The magnetic anomaly detection system (M.A.D.S). Journal of Parapsychology,69(1) 151-171.

Braithwaite, J.J., & Townsend, M. (2006) Good vibrations: The case for a specific effect of infrasound in instances of anomalous experience has yet to be empirically demonstrated. Journal for the Society of Psychical Research, 70 (885), pp211-224.

Braithwaite, J. J., Perez-Aquino, K., & Townsend, M. (2005). In search of magnetic anomalies associated with haunt-type experiences: Pulses and patterns in dual time-synchronized measurements. Journal of Parapsychology, 68(2), 255-288.

Braithwaite, J.J., & Townsend, M. (2005) Sleeping with the entity: A quantitative magnetic investigation of an English castle's reputedly haunted bedroom. European Journal of Parapsychology. 20.1, 65-78.

Braithwaite, J.J. (2004) Magnetic variances associated with haunt-type experiences: A comparison using time-synchronised baseline measurements. European Journal of Parapsychology. 19, 3-28

 

[Dr B]

Interesting study.

I wonder if this means that the reports of haunting in the Tapestry Room only started with the installation of electricity in the castle?

Not really, while there are non-stationary properties in the 50Hz power supply (with some pulses and bursts from time to time) and an irregular 8-second modulation effect (possible due to the three-phase system) - these effects are lower than 500nT (which is very very weak) and not really temporally complex enough.

However, if you read the papers cited above - you will see that the magentic anomaly seems to be due to something else as well - something which has nothing to do with the electrification of the castle.

 

[Dr B]

At the risk of asking a clumsy and possibly irrelevant question, could the increasing use of mobile telephones be of any relevance / have any impact with regard to this type phenomena?

Presumably they emit electromagnetic radiation and are most often used close to the head.

Are they capable of emitting electromagnetic patterns of the type associated with these types of phenomena?

Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree?

According to Persinger - no. He uses low-freuqency and highly complex magnetic fields. This is nothing like that used by mobile masts etc....

 

[Soapy Sam]

Since it has now been mentioned in this thread,
permit me to link to this thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153927
wherein I ask if anyone will attend this...
http://www.ukskeptics.com/conference-2009.php
Many of the lectures to be presented bear directly on the subject of the discussion.

 

[Wauthan]

While this was a very interesting thread to read I must admit that it sparked quite a lot of silly speculation at my office.

There's no correlation between local variations in the earths magnetic field and 'supernatural observations' right? Like haunted houses being located on fault lines? Or people working in enviroments with many strong magnetic sources being more prone to reporting strange sightings?

Though I guess it could be an addition explanation for how haunted sites are "born". One errh... magnetically sensitive person (?) sees something unexplainable, and interprets it as a ghost, and tells a friend. This friend later encounters an unsettling, but more mundane situation (say sounds similar to footsteps when alone in the house), and blames the ghost. Two different people meeting a ghost should be enough to label a house as haunted.

And if I keep going with this I will have made an entire chicken out of a single feather...

 

[Dr B]

There's no correlation between local variations in the earths magnetic field and 'supernatural observations' right? Like haunted houses being located on fault lines? Or people working in enviroments with many strong magnetic sources being more prone to reporting strange sightings?

Persinger would argue with you there as this is part of his whole approach (though only part of it). To be honest, i think these arguments from him are the weakest of all - and deeply unconvincing. But if you are asking as to whether people have tried to make those arguments in the science literature - well then the answer is yes they have. But these arguments are not well supported.

This is discussed in the papers above and will be discussed at the conference linked to above.

Though I guess it could be an addition explanation for how haunted sites are "born". One errh... magnetically sensitive person (?) sees something unexplainable, and interprets it as a ghost, and tells a friend. This friend later encounters an unsettling, but more mundane situation (say sounds similar to footsteps when alone in the house), and blames the ghost. Two different people meeting a ghost should be enough to label a house as haunted.

Dont fall into the trap of thinking that a sugestion for some experiences is the same as an account for all experiences.

To my mind the laboratory research is the most well attested to (and that is still highly controversial - see critique) but even if it is true - it only applies to a small minority of cases.

Persinger himself only reports one field-based case study where a woman (who also had frontal-lobe brain damage) reported odd sensations which he says was due to faulity electronic devices close to the skull and some wiring problems. At the very least we should not ignore that the woman must have had a degree of vulnerability due to her medical condition.

His other attempts at field studies are indirect and poorly measured - so of less use.

as i said above, his best stuff is his laboratory stuff and this is still dodgy to some degree.

 

[Wauthan]

My thanks to you Dr B.

Your answer was just what I was hoping for. It's a bit like finding a new piece to the puzzle you been trying to make sense out of for years. It's a bit too easy to jump to the hope that finally this will be the piece that let's me finish once and for all.

I've always been curious why I never encountered any ghosts (and other fantastical creatures) when so many other people claim to have done so. Guess I can add non-sensitivity to magnetic fields to my list of possible explanations.

 

[Dr B]

You are more than welcome and many thanks for your kind words.

The interesting thing is the definitive set of studies still need to be done. In my opinion they should be (i) done by people independent of Persinger (ii) under proper double-blind conditions (persinger often claims this - but if you check the detail it is rarely the case) (iii) using a variety of magnetic field characteristics on (iv) a large sample screened not for belief in the paranormal, but reports of having had paranormal experiences (via proper clinical questionnaires measuring for things like temporal-lobe instability, etc).

In addition, an epileptic (TLE) group would also be useful. This is exactly the sort of study we have planned - fingers crossed we get the funding soon.

We are close.....but no cigar just yet

it seems to me that many here would find the 2008 critique (cited above) very useful for an overview of findings and limitations.

 

[Cuddles]

The main problem I have with the OP is here:

There are a lot of theories, all of which have been proposed around the JREF forums at one time or another, and I’m sure that all of you can think of them in more detail than I can. Confirmation bias? Delusions? Stubbornness? A need to believe? An ego clash? Outright fraud? Complex psychological processes? What? Well, all of these explanations do have their merits. But based on some fascinating studies, I believe that something else may very well be going on.

If you want to try to understand why people believe weird things, the first thing you have to understand is that there is no single why. Many of these things which you seem to be claiming are merely theories which could be replaced by your favoured theory are actually proven facts. Confirmation bias does happen. Fraud does happen. Pareidolia does happen. Sleep paralysis does happen. The placebo effect does happen. Groupthink and brainwashing do happen. Mental illness does happen.

You cannot simply dismiss these things and replace them with a new theory, because they are already know to be the cause of many paranormal claims and beliefs. That certainly does not imply that there aren't other causes, but the existence of other causes in no way diminishes the influence of those that are already known. As Dr. B says, magnetic fields can probably only explain a tiny minority of paranormal reports. It's certainly interesting stuff, but you have to be careful you don't try to force it to be more than it really is. After all, that's exactly the behaviour that leads to many woo claims.

 

[YoPopa]

The main problem I have with the OP is here:

If you want to try to understand why people believe weird things, the first thing you have to understand is that there is no single why. Many of these things which you seem to be claiming are merely theories which could be replaced by your favoured theory are actually proven facts. Confirmation bias does happen. Fraud does happen. Pareidolia does happen. Sleep paralysis does happen. The placebo effect does happen. Groupthink and brainwashing do happen. Mental illness does happen.

When I read the OP I read something different, admittedly something that may not have been intended. I read it as:

snip...But based on some fascinating studies, I believe that something else may very well be going on in addition to the other explanations.

My interpretation may have been caused by the overly close proximity of my right temporal lobe to a flickering monitor or maybe I just like the looks of Maia's avatar.

I have been wondering, and please forgive if this was already discussed. Is it possible that the complex magnetic fields in the laboratory are simply triggering a process which can be triggered "spontaneously"? That is to say influenced by other types of brain activity in sensitive individuals, including stimulating thought processes, chemical imbalances, ETA..or a gentle nudge with an 8lb. sledge.

 

[Maia]

When I read the OP I read something different, admittedly something that may not have been intended. I read it as:

Originally Posted by Maia
snip...But based on some fascinating studies, I believe that something else may very well be going on in addition to the other explanations.
My interpretation may have been caused by the overly close proximity of my right temporal lobe to a flickering monitor or maybe I just like the looks of Maia's avatar.

Oh, well, thank you...

Anyway, yes. That's exactly what I meant. There are so many possible explanation for claims of "paranormal" perceptions and/or abilities, more than one of which are almost certainly operating in any given case. I'm really glad to see that this thread has started up again, especially given Dr. B's contributions. (Dr. B, could you possibly PM me and send me copies of some of those studies? Even though I should be studying for my state test next Saturday? ) I completely agree that Persinger's most convincing and best-controlled studies by far seem to be the laboratory ones.

In addition, an epileptic (TLE) group would also be useful. This is exactly the sort of study we have planned - fingers crossed we get the funding soon.

I would SO love to see this happen!

I've admired some of Persinger's other work. There was one study he worked on (I think it was quoted above; if not, I have it), which found that anticonvulsants adminstered several years after closed head injuries caused significant improvements in functioning. Let's just say that I have stellar anecdotal evidence to back that one up.

 

[Sherlock]

Subsonics, EMF, magnetic fields & toothpaste

This thread seems to wandering and intermixing a variety of sources for possible claimed outcomes. A couple items: It is unlikely the largest and deepest church organs would provide (including harmonics) much output below a frequency of 30Hz --- though a large intense output would certainly send rumbles throughout the floorboards and walls. The magnetic fields generated by artifical testing in simple tests are not generally the types that are sustained and duplicated in the real "active and moving" world. Personally I think that if there is any hidden cause to becoming convinced one has paranormal powers it is the feedback from those who believe you might be. ...although I've also been equally suspicious the cause could be caused by those who apply their toothpaste in two dabs with the water running rather than one dab with the water off.