Derren Brown is no different than Uri Gellar.

[JFrankA]

So he acknowledges that his art is only effective when playing around in those murky borderlands. It's a long-winded version of what everybody else in this thread says, "It's entertainment! It's supposed to confuse and amaze!"


Reading some more of that article, it seems that he understands the concerns and that he's well aware of the effect that he's having on people. That was 6 years ago, and he's only picked up steam since.

That tells me all I need to know.

So what does it tell you? Please elaborate.

 

[Azrael 5]

So he acknowledges that his art is only effective when playing around in those murky borderlands. It's a long-winded version of what everybody else in this thread says, "It's entertainment! It's supposed to confuse and amaze!"


Reading some more of that article, it seems that he understands the concerns and that he's well aware of the effect that he's having on people. That was 6 years ago, and he's only picked up steam since.

That tells me all I need to know.

What part of a magician's performance context don't you understand? He states at teh beginning of each performance/TV show "I achieve these results though a combination of magic misdirection suggestion psychology and showmanship."
What do you expect him or any other magician to do? Explain the method to every trick?
In the 1930's (I think) an act called The Evasons portrayed telepathy and mindreading. They never said it was or wasn't a trick : "You decide", they didn't care if audience thought it real, it created more mystery,more publicity.
Derren is never like Geller,only you has this problem understanding that.

 

[StanBearclaw]

So what does it tell you? Please elaborate.

Basically, he cares only about success. Any purported concerns about promoting good science will only ever be second priority.

You really needed me to restate this after this entire thread?

 

[StanBearclaw]

What part of a magician's performance context don't you understand? He states at teh beginning of each performance/TV show "I achieve these results though a combination of magic misdirection suggestion psychology and showmanship."
What do you expect him or any other magician to do? Explain the method to every trick?
In the 1930's (I think) an act called The Evasons portrayed telepathy and mindreading. They never said it was or wasn't a trick : "You decide", they didn't care if audience thought it real, it created more mystery,more publicity.
Derren is never like Geller,only you has this problem understanding that.

You act as if only outright frauds can be condemned as unethical.

Here in the real world, consequences count, not just intentions.

 

[JFrankA]

Basically, he cares only about success. Any purported concerns about promoting good science will only ever be second priority.

No, he doesn't care only about success. In fact, his act is about trying to figure out which is truth and which is cheating, (the word he uses).

You act as if only outright frauds can be condemned as unethical.

Because those ARE the people who are frauds.

Someone who admits that they are a fraud, like Derren, is, by definition being truthful.

Here in the real world, consequences count, not just intentions.

Wow. Glad we all don't live in your "real world". People would be arrested for writing something like "Harry Potter" if one child believes he can fly on a broom!

 

[StanBearclaw]

For realsies this time:

I've argued my point all that I'm going to.

You can rationalize it however you want.

 

[JFrankA]

I've argued my point all that I'm going to.

You can rationalize it however you want.

Same back to you.

So we agree to disagree.


ETA:

Basically, he cares only about success. Any purported concerns about promoting good science will only ever be second priority.

You may want to reconsider your statement, as Derren has posted in his blog:

http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2009/09/derren-brown-science-scams/

 

[StanBearclaw]

I lied.

Wow. Glad we all don't live in your "real world". People would be arrested for writing something like "Harry Potter" if one child believes he can fly on a broom!

Not one kid, but if it happened to reach an unacceptable threshold (which has been my argument all along), you can guarandamntee there would be consequences. You don't remember lawn darts? (The magic number there was 3 kids, by the way)

You may want to reconsider your statement, as Derren has posted in his blog:

http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2009/09/derren-brown-science-scams/

We'll see. He has a long way to go to balance the scales, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[MikeSun5]

The audience understands the effect, but misleading them about the cause only contributes to public ignorance.

Since when is Derren Brown responsible for educating the public?

Basically, he cares only about success. Any purported concerns about promoting good science will only ever be second priority.

Since when is Derren Brown the champion of science?

This thread has degenerated into a question of Derren Brown's social responsibility, and because he's a damn MAGICIAN, his obligations to educate society with his PERFORMANCES (oh, and don't forget -- sometimes explanations are part of his performance) are few to none, IMO.

I'm glad the thread has switched to that conversation, because even though it's silly, the comparison to Uri Geller is far more absurd. Uri Geller claims his abilities are real, Derren Brown says he uses tricks. Here's a quote from Uri (linky):

"I can say with absolute certainty I do not cheat. I am not a magician. I have been tested by some of the most eminent scientists in the most prestigious laboratories of the world, who wrote up their results in highly respected journals."

Can anyone find Derren Brown saying something similar? Derren Brown says on his show and his website:

"...he achieves his results using a combination of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection, and showmanship."

I find it amazing that people like EGarrett and StanUpshaw will read/hear that and only really pay attention to the word "psychology."
The first word he used to describe his methods is the word "MAGIC." The. Very. First. Word. All these people complaining that DB misleads people are ignoring 80% of his explanation, including the first word (magic). Also, the last two words of his explanation (misdirection and showmanship) should probably cast some doubt on the other words...

I'm sorry, but if someone who is on the fence about their belief in automatic writing takes their deciding bit of information from a dude who uses "magic" as one the first words in the explanation of his craft, they are not as intelligent as they think they are.

It was a mistake to get caught up in a discussion about ONE man's performance, because the problem is the aggregatory result of hundreds of years of performances by thousands of performers. Whatever one man does is irrelevant because the incorrect notions are so ingrained in the society. Fixing it would probably require a sea change.

Agreed... Yet you and the OPer are still content to call Derren Brown unethical. Why?

 

[StanBearclaw]

I've spelled out my concerns for five pages now. I'm not going to try explaining them again, as I'm obviously just spinning my wheels. You keep arguing against points that I didn't make. But I am willing to debate, so I'll offer you this:

Argue my side.

Reread my posts and try to understand them (I realize they tend to ramble), then make a post that encapsulates my point of view as you honestly interpret it. Then I'll take a look at it and correct whatever misconceptions you may have. At that point, at least you'll actually understand where I'm coming from, whether or not you choose to agree.

 

[MikeSun5]

Reread my posts and try to understand them (I realize they tend to ramble), then make a post that encapsulates my point of view as you honestly interpret it. Then I'll take a look at it and correct whatever misconceptions you may have. At that point, at least you'll actually understand where I'm coming from, whether or not you choose to agree.

As much as I'd love to reread all of your rambling posts and summarize them for you to correct, I really don't like homework. Save us both some time and make your own post that encapsulates your point of view. Maybe then I'll understand where you're coming from. So far, you've defended the OPers crazy comparison, and I've read this sort of thing:

Subjects where the common knowledge is lacking, however, need to be dealt with more carefully.

For the last time, my argument is not any sort of commandment that can apply across the board. I am ONLY talking about the specific incidences where the public's knowledge is lacking and they use fiction to fill in the gaps.

Why do you think it's Derren Brown's responsibility to educate the public in areas their knowledge is lacking?

Why are his obligations different than any other entertainer?

I wonder if knowing the method would change your opinion... If I were to go on TV and explain DB's most difficult tricks to everyone, I'd be willing to bet that this whole conversation would disappear. Just like stage magic and pro-wrestling, when the methods are revealed, the controversy vanishes.

Since Derren Brown uses phrases like "muscle memory" and "body language," and says buzz words like "NLP" and "psychology" during his performances, I've noticed some (people calling themselves) skeptics are quick to consider him an authority on certain scientific subjects.

That's super lazy skepticism. That's the type of ignorance/laziness that can also be dangerous -- if I want to learn to free dive, I'm not reading a David Blaine book.

DERREN BROWN IS A MAGICIAN. He's got as much responsibilty to the general public's scientific knowledge as a frickin clown at a birthday party.

 

[StanBearclaw]

As much as I'd love to reread all of your rambling posts and summarize them for you to correct, I really don't like homework. Save us both some time and make your own post that encapsulates your point of view. Maybe then I'll understand where you're coming from.

You can't even be bothered to read the posts on this page?

Gist: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

 

[Kuko 4000]

...says buzz words like "NLP" and "psychology" during his performances...

Just curious, in what tv episode or live performance he uses the term NLP?

 

[MikeSun5]

You can't even be bothered to read the posts on this page?

I've read them. Your assignment to me was to REread them and summarize them for you. That's what I don't want to be bothered by. Why can't you be bothered explain your views by yourself? Save me some time and a possible strawman.

As far as Mr. Singh's article, I read that thing like 5 years ago (yes, it's been around for a while), and it's really the only anti-Derren thing you can find. Every argument against Derren Brown to be found has it's roots in that ONE article by that ONE dude. It's pretty much a dead horse that's been beaten into dust - and the dust has been beaten some more.

Here's a quote from Derren Brown:

"I am often dishonest in my techniques, but always honest about my dishonesty. As I say in each show, 'I mix magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship'. I happily admit cheating, as it's all part of the game. I hope some of the fun for the viewer comes from not knowing what's real and what isn't. I am an entertainer first and foremost, and I am careful not to cross any moral line that would take me into manipulating people's real-life decisions or belief systems."

Pay close attention to each sentence. How the is that similar to Uri Geller??

 

[StanBearclaw]

Alright, I'm going to be very clear so even you can understand it:

Regardless of his intentions and the disclaimers and the things he writes in his book, a whole lot of people get fooled into believing his nonsense is truth.

As someone who thinks a dedication to science, reason and the truth is an ideal worth working toward, I see this as a problem. Much in the same way a person concerned with animal rights feels that a bull fight is unethical, I find it unethical when a person knowingly persists in a course of action that leads to more and more people getting fooled into believing nonsense is truth. (Especially someone who claims to be a skeptic at heart.)

I feel that anyone who claims to be a skeptic (what is a skeptic, after all, if not someone who exercises dedication to science, reason and the truth), is nothing less than a hypocrite if they see such a problem growing, and do not take issue with it. They praise it even! Say it's the rubes' fault for falling for his tricks. I find that repugnant.

I feel that Derren should recognize the effect that he's having and either find a way to do his show without the nonsense OR take the Randi/P&T route and once the show is over, be so rabidly pro-science that there is no reasonable doubt left in the mind of the audience. Being a magician does not relieve you of your societal responsibility.



As far as Gellar, I've only mentioned him once, and that was to say he was too irrelevant to discuss. Bravo on the reading comprehension!

 

[Delscottio]

Alright, I'm going to be very clear so even you can understand it:

Regardless of his intentions and the disclaimers and the things he writes in his book, a whole lot of people get fooled into believing his nonsense is truth.

As someone who thinks a dedication to science, reason and the truth is an ideal worth working toward, I see this as a problem. Much in the same way a person concerned with animal rights feels that a bull fight is unethical, I find it unethical when a person knowingly persists in a course of action that leads to more and more people getting fooled into believing nonsense is truth. (Especially someone who claims to be a skeptic at heart.)

I feel that anyone who claims to be a skeptic (what is a skeptic, after all, if not someone who exercises dedication to science, reason and the truth), is nothing less than a hypocrite if they see such a problem growing, and do not take issue with it. They praise it even! Say it's the rubes' fault for falling for his tricks. I find that repugnant.

I feel that Derren should recognize the effect that he's having and either find a way to do his show without the nonsense OR take the Randi/P&T route and once the show is over, be so rabidly pro-science that there is no reasonable doubt left in the mind of the audience. Being a magician does not relieve you of your societal responsibility.



As far as Gellar, I've only mentioned him once, and that was to say he was too irrelevant to discuss. Bravo on the reading comprehension!

Out of curiosity what societal responsibilty does Derren Brown actually have?

After reading his book I got the impression that he is pro science, what further steps would you like him to take? Remember we are talking about a magician who aside from performing tricks doesn't have a huge soapbox to preach from.

 

[andycal]

Glad you did this, I've only just joined the party...

Alright, I'm going to be very clear so even you can understand it:

Regardless of his intentions and the disclaimers and the things he writes in his book, a whole lot of people get fooled into believing his nonsense is truth.

He's an entertainer. He makes it clear it's entertainment. Some people will believe anything, that's not his fault.

As
someone who thinks a dedication to science, reason and the truth is an ideal worth working toward, I see this as a problem. Much in the same way a person concerned with animal rights feels that a bull fight is unethical, I find it unethical when a person knowingly persists in a course of action that leads to more and more people getting fooled into believing nonsense is truth. (Especially someone who claims to be a skeptic at heart.)

I think killing people is bad, I hope many people are of the same mind. Doesn't stop me watching Dirty Harry. I know the difference between fantasy and reality, although some don't we can't legislate for all of them.

I feel thaat anyone who claims to be a skeptic (what is a skeptic, after all, if not someone who exercises dedication to science, reason and the truth), is nothing less than a hypocrite if they see such a problem growing, and do not take issue with it. They praise it even! Say it's the rubes' fault for falling for his tricks. I find that repugnant.



I feel that Derren should recognize the efect thhat he's having and either find a way to do his show without the nonsense OR take the Randi/P&T route and once the show is over, be so rabidly pro-science that there is no reasonable doubt left in the mind of the audience. Being a magician does not relieve you of your societal responsibility.

Can't take issue with that. But I don't think Derren Brown has ever done that other than in an entertaining way. It'd be a pretty short show if he did some 'spirit writing' but pre-announced the trick by saying "I'm going to dissapear behind the screen and pretend to wriite using a pen with no ink then when you reveal the image I'll use a thumb-pencil to quickly sketch it".

He's gotta make a living somehow.

As far as Gellar, I've only menntioned him once, and that was to say he was too irrelevant to discuss. Bravo on the reading comprehension!

Yeah, but Gellar is cack and everyone hates him to the core.

On the wider subject of the lottery show, I think we ought to give him a chance here. I was dissapointed by the solution given, but he's got another three shows yet all around the same subject. Maybe they're all inter-related and he's saying things to get someone to do something. Or something like that.

I dunno, maybe he cocked up, but maybe in the final show we'll all go "ahhhhhhhhhh" and dip our hats to the gentleman in appreciation of his ruse.

 

[shuttlt]

Out of curiosity what societal responsibilty does Derren Brown actually have?

After reading his book I got the impression that he is pro science, what further steps would you like him to take? Remember we are talking about a magician who aside from performing tricks doesn't have a huge soapbox to preach from.

Is this the argument?

Derren is pro science, but keeping that to a minimum and filling people's heads with woo because it is necessary for Derren's act to be successful. Derren has every right to be as successful as he is able by doing his act, therefore he has no responsibility if peoples heads get filled with woo so long as it's no more than is necessary for him to achieve success.

 

[shuttlt]

Yeah, but Gellar is cack and everyone hates him to the core.

This is clearly false. We hate him, but many people clearly find him entertaining. By and large those are the people who's heads are getting filled with woo.

 

[JFrankA]

Not one kid, but if it happened to reach an unacceptable threshold (which has been my argument all along), you can guarandamntee there would be consequences. You don't remember lawn darts? (The magic number there was 3 kids, by the way)

Yeah, I remember lawn darts. I still have my set. I've played with those for years starting when I was eight and even then I knew that it was a really dumb idea to stand in front of them when we were playing with them. And even though I didn't need them, I still got warnings from adults telling me how dangerous they are.

But then you get dumb people who either don't heed warnings or think they can do something else with lawn darts that they weren't meant for and get injured. And because of those few dumb people no one can have a set of lawn darts.

Is this the argument?

Derren is pro science, but keeping that to a minimum and filling people's heads with woo because it is necessary for Derren's act to be successful. Derren has every right to be as successful as he is able by doing his act, therefore he has no responsibility if peoples heads get filled with woo so long as it's no more than is necessary for him to achieve success.

No, that's not the argument: The argument is that Derren is clearly an entertainer, nothing more. Anyone who's heads are getting filled with woo by his shows are people who refuse to try to distinguish reality from fantasy and refuse to even try to look "under the surface".

So what I'm getting is that both of your stance is that we must protect those few people. Since a few people might get the wrong idea so everyone do it the approved way.