Derren Brown is no different than Uri Gellar.

[Darat]

Loads of people (less rational than you or I) finished watching that programme and thought positive thinking and automatic writing will magically tap into the ether to predict lottery results.

Just like people finish watching John Edwards and it convinces them you can talk to the dead.

And do they say they are magicians?

 

[Darat]

Oh and I want my million dollars via bank transfer please:

It's happening again - a person paid to entertain us by lying to us lies to us and it upsets some people. Right at the start he told you what he does and he ends the whole show with a reminder.

 

[StanBearclaw]

How is Derren Brown's disclaimer any different than one that goes on a box of sham diet pills? He does the bare minimum to "play by the rules," then weaves his BS in a way that intentionally pollutes the truth. There is an important distinction between this and the suspension of disbelief. Without specific knowledge on the subject, there is no way of knowing where science ends and make-believe begins. It's not misdirection, it's misinformation. It's wrong to do it with diet pills, and it's wrong for Derren to do it.

To put it simply, Uri Geller : Derren Brown :: Snake Oil : HeadOn

Does a disclaimer make it okay?

 

[Ashles]

I haven't read Tricks of the Mind, but in that case he told a demonstrable, barefaced lie (which I find seriously unsurprising). To take the first example that came to hand, there's this interview with Jamy Ian Swiss in 2003:

Then read the book and it will explain it. What he says in that interview is entirely in keeping with what the book says. Hence where he says in the interview "that's a whole other conversation" which he actually has in the book.
In that interview he tries to be clear that you will not achieve his effects by NLP, and I would have thought that was clear, but I guess you can cherry pick bits to imply anything.

I notice you didn't highlight the part where he said in that interview
"It's not what I do."

He has trained in NLP, but does not think much of it, and is very skeptical of its claims. He does not claim to use it in his shows, but there are a couple of techniques within NLP (which are not exclusive to NLP) that he believes are effective in certain situations.

For his full opinion I suggest you read the relevant chapter in the book.

 

[Darat]

How is Derren Brown's disclaimer any different than one that goes on a box of sham diet pills?

...snip...

One is a type of fraud, one is a type of entertainment. That's comparing chalk and cheese, not even apples and pears!

I watch a lot of TV shows, within those shows they make all manner of claims. So lets make a comparison within the same genre:

Show 1:

Features a man who does not claim to have any psychic powers but claims to have incredible powers of observation, and by dint of so-called scientific means he can identify the perpetrator of many a horrid crime.​

Show 2:

Features a man who does not claim to have any psychic powers but claims to have incredible powers of observation, and by dint of so-called scientific means he can predict a draw of a lottery.
​

I like to watch both Sherlock Holmes and Derren Brown in their respective shows (albeit I prefer Sherlock Holmes).

 

[JFrankA]

Derren Brown leads people to believe that woo-woo is real. So does Gellar. It's not a matter of a magician's license. He actively misleads the public into believing in woo-woo. David Copperfield doesn't do this. Randi never did this. Houdini and Penn and Teller do not do this.

I'll address this too, but MikeSun5 nails it completely on the head. Let me explain it this way:

If you're going to think like that, then why aren't you saying Movies = Uri? Watch any action or adventure movie and they actively mislead the public into believeing in woo-woo too. It's entertainment. There are tons of films based on woo, or explain a natural phenomenon in a woo way. Do the movies have a disclaimer saying "Look, this stuff we are showing is bullpuckey. We are telling you it works this way because it's entertaining so don't believe the marlarkey in this film and go read a science book" with every showing?

It's the same thing with Derren. You watch Derren's show, you are being entertained.

The other difference is that Derren will own up once the lights are off. Derren doesn't have his website filled with books or videos he's selling to help you find ways of getting wealth or some such nonsense.

So what if he doesn't come out and say "this is woo, it's a trick" while onstage. That's the stage. Not real life.

Now if you don't like his style, fine, that's one thing. If you prefer the "in-you-face-this-is-fake", okay. But to say he promotes woo just like Uri is like saying that an actor should be himself and act like he would with every character he plays.

Uri lives his lie 24/7, Derren drops it when the lights are off.

How is Derren Brown's disclaimer any different than one that goes on a box of sham diet pills? He does the bare minimum to "play by the rules," then weaves his BS in a way that intentionally pollutes the truth. There is an important distinction between this and the suspension of disbelief. Without specific knowledge on the subject, there is no way of knowing where science ends and make-believe begins. It's not misdirection, it's misinformation. It's wrong to do it with diet pills, and it's wrong for Derren to do it.

But here's the difference: He doesn't sell anything but his show. Period. Do you see a "Derren Brown method of instantly telling how everyone is lieing" DVD pack promoted by him for the low low low price of $500.00?

To put it simply, Uri Geller : Derren Brown :: Snake Oil : HeadOn

Does a disclaimer make it okay?

Nope.

Let me explain where I am coming from on this.

When I open my show, I have two people come up from the audience. I explain that I'm going to make a prediction based on Numeric Psychological Linguistics.

I have one person put up a six digit number then I ask a bunch of questions. I explain to them that what I care about is not her answers, but her reaction to the numbers in the questions and how she responds to them. I write down my prediction.

I ask a few more questions, writing down some numbers based on her answers, then have her write two more random numbers.

When all the numbers are all added up, I reveal that my prediction was the sum of all the numbers written and I credit it all to Numeric Psychological Linguistics.

So, here's my question: do you think I am also just as bad as Uri?

 

[Darat]

I...snip...

So, here's my question: do you think I am also just as bad as Uri?

Do you have any pills to help me lose weight?

 

[Darat]

From Uri Geller's website, which is subtitled: "This website could change your life for the better!"

http://www.urigellerbooks.com/

THE POWER OF THE MIND 4 CDs
PLUS URI'S LITTLE BOOK OF MIND POWER.

Uri's powerful set of CDs and his Little Book of Mind Power will inspire and motivate you to think positive and believe in yourself. We all know that the human mind is the most powerful tool in the universe. Now Uri Geller tells us how we can tap into the hidden strengths which each one of us possesses. Every page you turn will energise you with a new confidence and determination.

Unleash your Mind-Power.
Possess the will to win!

http://www.urigellerbooks.com/shop/index1.html

Uri Geller is one of the most highly regarded figures in the world of psychic phenomena. This is the first time he has spoken about his absolute belief in the power of the mind to heal and transform. He understands the fundamental need to regard the body as a whole and that interaction between the mind and body is a crucial part of the healing process.

In this unique book he shows you that the human mind is a powerhouse of healing energy, untapped by most of us and yet capable of restoring physical and mental health. He shows how the more you understand about yourself, the closer you will come to developing your own healing potential. Lavishly illustrated throughout Mind Medicine includes:

AN EXPLORATION OF ANCIENT WISDOMS AND NOW THEY CAN BE COMBINED WITH TODAYS MEDICINE

HEALING THERAPIES FOR EACH OF THE FOUR ENERGY BODIES: PHYSICAL, MENTAL, EMOTIONAL AND SPIRITUAL

SELF-HELP EXERCISES TO ENABLE THE READER TO GAIN ACCESS TO THEIR UNCONSCIOUS MIND

...snip...

His work with the FBI and the CIA has ranged from using Mindpower to wipe KGB computer files and tracking serial killers,...snip...

 

[AgeGap]

Sorry

 

[JFrankA]

Do you have any pills to help me lose weight?

Yes!!! Take these pills (and follow this special diet and exercise program that comes with the pills) and you are guaranteed to lose weight!!!!!

And since you put up Uri's pages, we should put up Derren's pages for comparison's sake.

http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/

(oh, and notice the book Derren is pushing).

http://derrenbrown.channel4.com/index.shtml

and on that one you learn a magic trick. That's it. No "Unleash your Mind-Power. Possess the will to win!" and no claims of "his work with the FBI and the CIA has ranged from using Mindpower to wipe KGB computer files and tracking serial killers...."

 

[kdogg]

Gellar claims his tricks are done by woo.
Derren claimed he won the lottery by woo.

 

[JFrankA]

Gellar claims his tricks are done by woo.
Derren claimed he won the lottery by woo.

Gellar claims he can improve your life by woo even when the performance is done.
Derren fights woo after the perfomance is done.


ETA: By the way, Derren didn't "win the lottery" like you mentioned. He picked the numbers. Big difference.

 

[Azrael 5]

Derren Brown:

In this show I fuse magic ,misdirection,psychology and showmanship

Not woo woo, not NLP, not science. Entertainment.

 

[Azrael 5]

Gellar claims his tricks are done by woo.
Derren claimed he won the lottery by woo.

Derren Brown:

If anyone asks me how I did it ,I will say "It's a trick"

 

[pounce]

wow, just wow.

derren is a fun magician to watch.

uri is a bad charlatan.

i don't find it as easy to confuse them as the OP does.

 

[Darat]

Gellar claims his tricks are done by woo.
Derren claimed he won the lottery by woo.

Geller does not claim to do any tricks, Brown does - that is the key difference.

 

[EGarrett]

Magicians lie. Both Uri and Derren are magicians, so yes. In this particular aspect, the title of this thread is accurate. Congratulations.

EGarrett - 1, DB - 0.

Actually, the standard response Randi has to "how did you do that?" is "Quite well, actually." He never misleads people about the cause, he simply omits information.

Derren Brown's response, to "how did you do that" is along the lines of "by using automatic writing and taking the average of what the people wrote down."

This is far more misleading.

Well, he does say they're tricks. This is where he is unlike Uri Geller, who says there are no tricks involved.

Actually, Uri Gellar even now says that there may be tricks involved. But he still is misleading people as is DB.

Nobody's forcing you to watch, but you do anyway.

Nobody forced me to watch Sylvia Brown lie on the Montel Williams Show either. What is your point? You're arguing a strawman statement that Derren Brown is not entertaining.

We have a winner.

Yeah, and it's not the guy ignoring paragraphs and pulling out strawman and ad hominem arguments.

Magicians do lie, yes. Of course, Derren hasn't claimed to work for oil companies and covert government programs. Derren also doesn't concentrate on superstitious cultures and countries for audiences.

There's a difference between omitting information and misleading people.

I disagree. An illusion wouldn't work unless there was intentional misleading on the part of the illusionist.

The audience understands the effect, but misleading them about the cause only contributes to public ignorance.

So you think he actually made the Statue of Liberty vanish?

Try reading something I've said so you don't have to waste time with strawmen like this.

All of the people you listed intentionally mislead and manipulate their audience. They are all LIARS -- and very good ones at that. They have to be in order to be successful.

Okay, show me Randi lying, not just omitting information but outright lying or being deceptive, about the cause of his effect...in the same way that Derren Brown implies that NLP, automatic writing, hypnotic suggestion, or things like photographic memory are what allow him to do his effects.

As far as magicians misleading their audience, you are right. Derren Brown is no different from Uri Geller. The difference is that Derren Brown specifically says has no paranormal abilities.

Okay, show me an example of automatic writing working in a laboratory setting. Go on. He claimed that was how he predicted lottery numbers.

Your problem with Derren Brown seems to be him telling "intelligent" people stuff like automatic writing and NLP are real sciences. I think that if these "intelligent" people actually believe that tripe like NLP is a real science, then they deserve to be tricked by Derren Brown. I would reassess their "intelligence," or at least their critical thinking skills.

By that logic, then, any "intelligent" person who believes that spoon bending is real deserves to be tricked by Gellar. Any "intelligent" person who believes that the afterlife is real deserves to be fleeced by Sylvia Browne and John Edward. Right?

Like I said, DB is not a scientist. People taking his word as scientific fact isn't because of his deception, it's because of their gullibility. It doesn't take much research to learn that his "explanations" are bogus. Seriously. One or two google searches. Are these "intelligent" people that lazy?

This exact same logic applies to Sylvia Browne, John Edward and Uri Gellar. The title of this post is "Derren Brown is no different than Uri Gellar."

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[EGarrett]

Geller does not claim to do any tricks, Brown does - that is the key difference.

Actually, in November 2007, Gellar told a magazine..."I'll no longer say that I have supernatural powers. I am an entertainer. I want to do a good show. My entire character has changed."

So now it could be argued that Brown is even worse than Gellar.

 

[Darat]

Actually, in November 2007, Gellar told a magazine..."I'll no longer say that I have supernatural powers. I am an entertainer. I want to do a good show. My entire character has changed."

So now it could be argued that Brown is even worse than Gellar.

His website shows that not to be the truth.

 

[Darat]

Actually, the standard response Randi has to "how did you do that?" is "Quite well, actually." He never misleads people about the cause, he simply omits information.

...snip...

I was lucky to have lunch with Randi once and he showed some sleight of hand magic and when asked how did he do it - he answered "magic".