Tower Collapse Questions for Critical Thinkers

Now, a building collapsing on itself is not going to offer uniform resistance; the floors are going to resist more than the spaces between floors, but would the principal be the same or, at least, similar? That resistance would have to overcome the force from acceleration due to gravity before it can overcome the kinetic energy due to the velocity of the falling object in order to completely stop it from falling?

Yes, the principal is similar, but not exactly the same. However, your main point is correct; if the resistive force exerted by the building exactly balances the downward force at all times, then that won't stop the collapse, but will only result in it progressing at constant speed. The entire kinetic energy of the falling mass, or rather the part of it that doesn't fall off the sides, needs to be absorbed by the structure before the collapse can stop.

However, there are two additional factors in a building collapse. One is that the structural strength of the building increases lower down, so the resistance will increase. The other is that the debris from the collapse is added to the falling mass, so the downward force also increases. It depends on the details of the building which of these predominates. Calculations of the structure of the twin towers make it clear that the downward force exceeds the resistive force by a very large margin throughout the collapse, however, so the collapse not only never stopped; it accelerated, all the way to the ground.

Dave
 
Cool.

It doesn't mention the path of least resistance specifically, but that phrase is a commonly understood way of referring to the flow of current which Ohm's Law describes, as I substantiated here.

I only referred to it as a side point, in response to denial of the path of least resistance having anything to do with physics, which can be found here. I did not attempt to construct any argument out of it.

Sure enough, and from among multiple paths of varying resistance; through which path does the most go though?

Stubbornly ignorant rather than just ignorant then.

I will give you another posters thoughts on this as it is blatantly obvious to everyone reading.

ETA. This the final time I respond to this nonsense. Ohms law does not state anything about the path of least resistance. You have lied in order to claim you have substantiated it does.
 
Originally Posted by kylebisme

It is a common way of describing a law of the physics of electricity, as I substantiated here.

It doesn't mention the path of least resistance specifically, but that phrase is a commonly understood way of referring to the flow of current which Ohm's Law describes, as I substantiated here.

I was away for a day and I see that K remains uninformed about "path of least resistance" and electric current. Lets do a little Gedanken experiment. K, as an attendee of the Great Architects School and the Great Physicists School should be comfortable here.

Take a square metal plate. For this purpose, the dimensions are irrelevant.

Attach wires on opposite corners and apply voltage.

Think about where the current flows across the plate. The "Shortest path" would be across the diagonal. Is that were all the current goes?

If you cut metal away from un-wired corners towards the center, the current will decrease, indicting that current was passing through all places on the plate in proportion to the voltage difference across any two points on the plate.

"Path of least resistance" has damn little application in any formal or practical physics I can think of. Maybe water flowing it downhill is the only case. Free-slowing water is not a model of current flow.

I did my time in EE at University but it was mumble decades ago and I never used it. I can no longer solve this problem by equation. It's been a long time.
 
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Dang....has RM raised his shields already ? I wanted to put something to him. He said the following:-

' There's a reason for this. Newton's Third Law says that forces are equal and opposite, at any point in time. It does not imply that damage is equal and opposite, particularly when totalled over a complex evolution.'

I just wanted to know, given that the structural components in the ' upper block ' (part C) of WTC1 were lighter than the elements they impacted in the 'lower block ' (part A) what effect that would have when applied to 'Smith's Law' ?

Smith's first Law of WTC1:
''Whatever downwards force the moving body exerts on the stationary body of identical construction fixed in the ground is reciprocated by the stationary body equally and oppositely. After that it depends which body is rendered non-viable by mutual erosion first.''
 
Dang....has RM raised his shields already ? I wanted to put something to him. He said the following:-

' There's a reason for this. Newton's Third Law says that forces are equal and opposite, at any point in time. It does not imply that damage is equal and opposite, particularly when totalled over a complex evolution.'

I just wanted to know, given that the structural components in the ' upper block ' (part C) of WTC1 were lighter than the elements they impacted in the 'lower block ' (part A) what effect that would have when applied to 'Smith's Law' ?

Smith's first Law of WTC1:
''Whatever downwards force the moving body exerts on the stationary body of identical construction fixed in the ground is reciprocated by the stationary body equally and oppositely. After that it depends which body is rendered non-viable by mutual erosion first.''

Jesus, Bill. Smith's Law?!? At least I have the courtesy to stay out of a discussion that I am wholly unqualified to comment upon. Can't say that stops you though.
 
Jesus, Bill. Smith's Law?!? At least I have the courtesy to stay out of a discussion that I am wholly unqualified to comment upon. Can't say that stops you though.

Why don't you or one of your people write up a 'Debunker's first Law of WTC1' so we can compare the two laws and see which one makes the most sense ?
 
Okay, here it is.
Debunker's first law: Before you hit "Post", reread your missive to ensure it complies with known physical laws, is logical, and is spelled and punctuated correctly. Otherwise, we will laugh at you.
 
Sure enough, debris falling from the impact have greater velocity and acceleration because they they are meeting less opposing force. But what I'm hopping you might here is how Newton's third law applies to the upper block itself. What what can be observed as the reaction to that upper block crushing the lower one in terms of change in velocity and acceleration?

I do thank you kindly for continuing to humor me here, as I feel you answering the above question will go well better than me doing so.

I.
Already.
Did.
Answer.
Your.
Stupid.
Question.
Stop.
Dodging.
 
I would if I had ever done anything of the sort. However, having not done so, and having never suggested otherwise, I'm not rightly in a position to answer your request.

That said, any chance you might be able to answer a question for me? I am wanting someone who is considered more credible here to explain the affects of Newton's third law of motion as observable in these collapses. Specifically, in each instance, what can be observed as the reaction to the upper block crushing the lower one in terms of change in velocity?

OK, thanks everybody for deconstructing this troll. Comparing his various statements regarding 'Ohms law' and the 'path of least resistance' shows him to be a complete intellectual fraud.

I'm putting him on ignore. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

nb - truthers apparently operate according to the law of 'Path of Most Resistance'; that is, when placed between two logical points, they will resist one or more of those points using and equal and opposite 'Denial Force', (related to Newton's 3rd law), then if the Truther Intellectual Tension (TIT) crosses Boundary Sum (BS) level, a Deflection Force (a) intervenes and the truther escapes the logical points entirely, using the Path of Least Resistance.

I'm pretty sure that both Newton's 3rd law and the Law of 'Path of Least Resistance' are well established. kylebisme himself invoked both such laws, in exactly those words earlier on, so they must be true.:D
 
No. Completely wrong. (And completely absurd.)

Take that tower of glass tables example. Let's say each table weighs twenty pounds. The glass surface weighs ten pounds and can support twenty pounds in weight, total, so it holds itself up just fine. The legs of the table weigh another ten pounds in total, and are solid steel, so they can support two thousand pounds in weight.

You can stack fifty of these tables up so long as you carefully position them so that the legs of each table are directly above the legs of the one below. And you can add up to ten pounds of weight to each and every one of the tables and it will still stay up.

But if you put a twenty-pound weight on one of the tables, it will break, and drop thirty pounds of weight on the table below (more if the legs fall inwards) which will break and drop forty pounds of weight on the table below that. Stack fifty tables up and you have a nice, solid, secure tower. Take the top table - weighing only twenty pounds - turn it at an angle, and drop it from even one inch, and the entire structure, easily capable of holding five hundred pounds of weight, disintegrates.

Nicely put. The only difference between the stacked tables and what I was considering is that I had the 4 legs as continuous columns with seats to bolt the glass 'floors' to. In this case if you load the top 'floor' with more than it can sustain it breaks and sends that mass plus the mass of glass debris down to the next floor.

Heiwa is ignoring completely that the falling mass will accellerate (in this analogy) between 'floors'. The only way for the collapse to arrest is for the decelleration of the falling mass that fails the first 'floor' exceeding the accelleration between floors by a substantial margin. Such decceration would have to negate the contribution of the added mass and the dynamic loading of that extra mass(it having gained velocity in the fall between floors as well), and reduce the velocity of the original mass such that its dynamic load plus gravitational load is less than the load that any one floor can sustain.

Now, if the original mass was dropped from a height equal to that of the distance between floors and that alone was sufficient to fail the 'floor' then even if that mass comes to a full stop as it fails that 'floor' its next drop will be exactly the same distance as its original drop. It will be joined by the mass of the failed 'floor'. In this case the only way for arrest the collapse would be for it to encounter a much more robustly built floor and it will have to do so soon since with every 'floor' failure more mass gets added.

In addition, and this could be somewhat minor in this scaled down analogy, with every floor failure the leg columns lose lateral support and will be prone to more sway or even buckling which would make the structure more susceptible to the effects of the mass falling down.


This analogy is a fairly basic first approximation of the WTC towers. Heiwa then wants to add detail such as the fact that the columns will hit first, punching through the floor pans, followed by the falling floor pan hitting the next lower one.



Well in this case you have an already violently damaged floor(columns having punched through) becoming loaded with the mass of an entire floor. So you have the case of a floor being suddenly loaded with approx twice the mass load at a time when its load carrying capacity will have been at least somewhat compromised given that its structural integrity has been compromised.( note to NB: this is qualitative phraseing in which I mean that the floor is no longer fully intact) Add to this mass loading the fact of the huge dynamic load.

(Now in the case of tower 2 the columns struck the floor at what angle? Punching not straight through. )

If this is not enough to immediatly fail a floor it is being followed by yet another floor.
Heiwa states that the falling floor will also become detached from the columns. True and in doing so it will not be robbing the rest of the upper section of a lot of velocity. Why? The truss seats are designed to hold a load acting in the other direction so the only thing holding a floor from moving upward(relative to the columns and truss seats, which are themselves moving downward wrt to the ground) are a few bolts. The first falling floor will be experincing a force that would be moving it upward wrt to the truss seat. That first floor will impact down on the yet-to-be-failed floor.

Heiwa states that the energy required to fail the lower section floor will equal that required to fail the first dropping floor, but since their failure modes are in opposite directions whereas the structure was designed for forces acting in only one of those directions, his contention is not true.

The next floor coming the way of the yet-to-be-failed floor will still be adding a large dynamic load as well as yet another floorspace's mass. It will do this well before the yet-to-be-failed floor springs back from the first impact meaning that the dynamic load of this next floor is impacting something already heavily deformed.

What would one see?
(start with WTC 1 as its upper section fell without a lot of tilt)
The perimeter columns of the upper section initially have no gravitational load on them at all. They are falling. They impact floor pans but the floor pans offer very little load compared to what they are capable of handling. However the floor pan of the first dropping floor tears away from its seats as it hits the first lower floor.
The upper section now has no connection between perimeter and core at that floor. However it does not require that lateral bracing since it has very little vertical loading. So initially we do not see the perimeter of the upper section come apart

No so for the lower section. Those perimeter columns are still experiencing weight, and they are unbraced for a two storey height, the top most floor having been violently torn from its seats.
 
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Sure enough, debris falling from the impact have greater velocity and acceleration because they they are meeting less opposing force. But what I'm hopping you might here is how Newton's third law applies to the upper block itself. What what can be observed as the reaction to that upper block crushing the lower one in terms of change in velocity and acceleration?

I do thank you kindly for continuing to humor me here, as I feel you answering the above question will go well better than me doing so.

You appear to be asking what the change in velocity of the lower block was.

Of course its velocity as a whole does not change measurably. Thi is because until the energy of collapse causes it to come apart it is still part of the mass we refer to as EARTH.

Take the case of both upper and lower blocks being solid objects dropped one on the other with the lower one sitting on the ground. The momentum of the impact is transmitted to the lower block mass PLUS the mass of the earth.

The change in velocity of the lower mass will be negligible.

Obviously that is not the whole story of what occured. The energy in the system caused both upper and lower sections to disintegrate (not to be confused as the inverse of the integration that Mackey has been trying to teach you).
Collisions occured between these pieces and the whole event was driven by one force acting in one direction, meaning that each individual piece experienced a downward force as it became detached from the structure as a whole.

clear now?
 
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Dang....has RM raised his shields already ? I wanted to put something to him. He said the following:-

' There's a reason for this. Newton's Third Law says that forces are equal and opposite, at any point in time. It does not imply that damage is equal and opposite, particularly when totalled over a complex evolution.'

I just wanted to know, given that the structural components in the ' upper block ' (part C) of WTC1 were lighter than the elements they impacted in the 'lower block ' (part A) what effect that would have when applied to 'Smith's Law' ?

Smith's first Law of WTC1:
''Whatever downwards force the moving body exerts on the stationary body of identical construction fixed in the ground is reciprocated by the stationary body equally and oppositely. After that it depends which body is rendered non-viable by mutual erosion first.''

What the H doesb "non-viable" mean?

It loses mass? Energy or momentum disappears?

Which weighs more bill, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?
 
I would if I had ever done anything of the sort. However, having not done so, and having never suggested otherwise, I'm not rightly in a position to answer your request.

That said, any chance you might be able to answer a question for me? I am wanting someone who is considered more credible here to explain the affects of Newton's third law of motion as observable in these collapses. Specifically, in each instance, what can be observed as the reaction to the upper block crushing the lower one in terms of change in velocity?

The laws of physics are the same no matter who explains them.

Maybe you could explain what your problem is with them.
 
It isn't a matter of my answer, it's a matter of the answer, as the same laws of physics would apply regardless of my own existence. And again, as I've been branded as failing in my understanding of physics by many here, I'm figuring at least someone would be willing to demonstrate his/her own intellect by answering a simple question of Newtonian physics.

It is a common way of describing a law of the physics of electricity, as I substantiated here.

And there it is folks:

Proof by google.
That's the proof the troof loves.
 
OK, thanks everybody for deconstructing this troll. Comparing his various statements regarding 'Ohms law' and the 'path of least resistance' shows him to be a complete intellectual fraud.

I'm putting him on ignore. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

nb - truthers apparently operate according to the law of 'Path of Most Resistance'; that is, when placed between two logical points, they will resist one or more of those points using and equal and opposite 'Denial Force', (related to Newton's 3rd law), then if the Truther Intellectual Tension (TIT) crosses Boundary Sum (BS) level, a Deflection Force (a) intervenes and the truther escapes the logical points entirely, using the Path of Least Resistance.

I'm pretty sure that both Newton's 3rd law and the Law of 'Path of Least Resistance' are well established. kylebisme himself invoked both such laws, in exactly those words earlier on, so they must be true.:D

Perfect answer to Bill @326
 
What the H doesb "non-viable" mean?

It loses mass? Energy or momentum disappears?

Which weighs more bill, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?


Which body is eroded (worn away) by the attrition of the two bodies to the point of being non-viable (no longer of significance in terms of affecting the other body) first ? The 87 floors or the 13 floors ?
 
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Which body is eroded (worn away) by the attrition of the two bodies to the point of being non-viable (no longer of significance in terms of affecting the other body) first ? The 87 floors or the 13 floors ?

Oh, well now that you have completely failed at explaining the term it makes so much less sense.
Thank you.

What has more mass bill, an intact concrete floor or the same floor after being broken up? If in both cases the mass is moving which one has more momentum?
 

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