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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Lothian said:
Page 3. If you want to talk about cherry picking I am happy to pull up your quotes of Ramsay that all miss the qualifier he adds to the statement you provide.
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That's a littler bit unfair. DOC wasn't cherry-picking: he was quote-mining.
 
Come come now. All theist cherry pick. It's what stops them going crazy.
 
Mojo said:
See also Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullāh.
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Do you think his old man was REALLY going to sacrifice him

SHALOM :D

No. Jesus is laughing at all those silly "Red Sea Pedestrians" for swallowing his crap



Robert
 
DOC said:
Well Jesus Christ was not invisible, and his words were recorded on 24,000 manuscripts compared to 7 manuscripts for Plato. And most historians believe he existed.

Some other reasons to believe are:

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated T. Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut those words out of the bible and make a book with them and say they were the most moral and sublime teachings he ever read.

2) the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I've seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

3) the current "unproven" life from non-life scientific theory.

4) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than an atom and this all happened by unintelligent random forces.

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themselves for their belief.

6)the unexplained empty tomb

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.
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I debated whether or not to respond to this fiasco, but unfortunately the evil demons won and I chose to answer it.......

I'm only first going to respond to the bolded part. You've been told repeatedly why this claim is wrong, so I will ask you nicely and then followed by a thoroughly un-nice means to remove this claim.

So, first, please remove this particular claim.

If you've read this far, then I'm sorry, but I feel the overwhelming need to call you either: (1) totally incompetent and ignorant of both Roman and Christian history invalidating any claim that you might want to make in this area; (2) a complete idiot since you've been shown time and again why this claim is simply wrong; or (3) a liar, since you've been shown that this is not only wrong, but you've been shown it repeatedly so that you can only repeat this claim if you are willfully misrepresenting history.

I'll leave the choice to you. What are you? Ignorant? Idiotic? Or a liar? I'm afraid that I don't see many other options here.

Had you not been shown worthwhile historical analysis I would have given you the benefit of the doubt; but since you have, there is no place for you to hide. So which is it? Should everyone call you ignorant, idiot, or liar? I will let you decide. You can only persist in such misrepresentations for so long.

I will let you decide if you really think that that the message you want everyone to get is that your religion can only defended by base lies such as this? Why should anyone bother with an idea that can only be defended by falsehood?
 
Ichneumonwasp said:
What are you? Ignorant? Idiotic? Or a liar? I'm afraid that I don't see many other options here.

<snip/>

...Why should anyone bother with an idea that can only be defended by falsehood?
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Because such ideas are ideal for adding padding (if not substance) to willful delusions; for examples, see all religions
 
DOC said:
Well Jesus Christ was not invisible, and his words were recorded on 24,000 manuscripts compared to 7 manuscripts for Plato. And most historians believe he existed
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.

I wish you were right, DOC; unfortunately, those 24,000 manuscripts are a figment of Josh McDowell's imagination. How many times has it been pointed out to you this number of 'manuscripts', in their vast majority, are products of the Middle Ages and represent, in many cases, flawed copies of the NT which were consigned to a junk room rather than burnt?
In any case, the figure 24,000 is meaningless in the context of this thread's purported discussion, since not one of them is an autograph.


Some other reasons to believe are:

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated T. Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut those words out of the bible and make a book with them and say they were the most moral and sublime teachings he ever read.
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Not only is this reason an appeal to authority, it appeals to an authority who felt the need to literally cut out from the remaining dross the words attributed to Jesus. In your church, DOC, how would such an act be seen: literally cutting up an NT to show what parts of it can be used?

2) the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I've seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.
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I understand your argument here, DOC, and I could even agree with it to a certain point, except that unfortunately, there's a study out there which shows that more likely the opposite is true:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf

There is evidence that
within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated
with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and
mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and
related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of
evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the
responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the
information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.
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3) the current "unproven" life from non-life scientific theory.
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This point is an obvious a red herring. In any case I'd suggest this concern should be taken to the science section as this thread is about evidence for why we know the NT authors were tellling the truth.

4) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than an atom and this all happened by unintelligent random forces.
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Obviously, another red herring. It's difficut to see how the thread's subject and this 'reason' are related.

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themselves for their belief.
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Indeed, it's a fact the 'cowardly' apostles is a great literary ploy.
However, there's no evidence for these stories' truth outside of church tradition and in any case, wasn't the 'life changing' power of the NT covered in point 2?
6)the unexplained empty tomb
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That phrase is most effective in sermons, I know.
But of course, DOC isn't sermonising here.
So the obvious question is: How is an empty tomb proof of the NT?

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.
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Retro-fitting in texts written by long after the events.

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.
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I see DOC missed the posts which discussed the Imperial decrees which defined and legitimised the persecution of pagans.

Evidence for why we know the NT authors were telling the truth?
Thus far, none. None at all.
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Thanks, Mojo.
I needed that.
Still, I see DOC has gone back to really rather badly shop-worn arguments rather than actually live up to his claim to show how Sir William Ramsay's book gives evidence for the truth of the NT.

I'm hoping he'll quote from the chapter on Luke's sensitive handing of Rhoda (not Paula) the slave girl.
 
Just skipped another three hundred posts or so. Have we made any progress on getting evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth?
 
DOC said:
Some other reasons to believe are:

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated T. Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut those words out of the bible and make a book with them and say they were the most moral and sublime teachings he ever read.
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This is the same T. Jefferson who expunged all references to the virgin birth and the resurrection from his redacted version of the four gospels, yes?

If so, please do explain what it is that you believe
TYIA :)
 
DOC said:
7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.
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Name one that's not after-the-fact or special pleading, and that is supported by something more than what-it-says-in-the-Bible.
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Isaiah 53 for one, which is supported by the historical person, Jesus.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142542

And here are some others, with several supported by the historical person Jesus.

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible
 
six7s said:
This is the same T. Jefferson who expunged all references to the virgin birth and the resurrection from his redacted version of the four gospels, yes?
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Yes, I know that. And he also claimed to be a Christian if we are to believe what he wrote.

But I still think the fact that a man of Jefferson's education and knowledge claimed Jesus teachings were the most moral and sublime in history outweighs his non-belief in the divinity of Christ when it comes to my presenting a overall case for the truth of the New Testament writers. Maybe if books like Geisler's cited in post #1 or "Examine the Evidence" by Ralph Muncaster were around for Jefferson to read he wouldn't of had the intellectual obstacles to the faith he had.
 
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DOC said:
Yes, I know that. And he also claimed to be a Christian if we are to believe what he wrote.

But I still think the fact that a man of Jefferson's education and knowledge claimed Jesus teachings were the most moral and sublime in history outweighs his non-belief in the divinity of Christ when it comes to my presenting a case for the truth of the New Testament writers.
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Which part of the NT are you claiming is true? The teachings or the miracles and other supernatural parts? Because if it's the former, I don't think you'll find too much opposition; sure, there's no external evidence, but a record of what one man is supposed to have said is a lot more believable than a catalogue of paranormal events. But what most people here are assuming is that you are talking about the latter. If you are agreeing with Jefferson about those, please state that clearly.

ETA:
I'm sorry, are you really saying that the fact that Jefferson didn't believe in the supernatural parts is proof that they were true? Because that's what you seem to be saying.

Maybe if books like Geisler's cited in post #1 or "Examine the Evidence" by Ralph Muncaster were around for Jefferson to read he wouldn't of had the intellectual obstacles to the faith he had.
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I sincerely doubt that; Jefferson was intelligent. And it's "wouldn't have", not "wouldn't of".
 
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DOC said:
Yes, I know that. And he also claimed to be a Christian if we are to believe what he wrote.

But I still think the fact that a man of Jefferson's education and knowledge claimed Jesus teachings were the most moral and sublime in history outweighs his non-belief in the divinity of Christ when it comes to my presenting a case for the truth of the New Testament writers.
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So... in the ongoing quest to maintain your delusion, you're content to employ unabashed cherry-picking...

Right.

Got it.

Thanks for the clarification.






DOC said:
Maybe if books like Geisler's cited in post #1 or "Examine the Evidence" by Ralph Muncaster were around for Jefferson to read he wouldn't of had the intellectual obstacles to the faith he had.
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Please, try harder to remember which lies you have on the boil, and where; your Geiseler lie has been thoroughly debunked on this forum
 
DOC said:
Isaiah 53 for one, which is supported by the historical person, Jesus.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142542

And here are some others, with several supported by the historical person Jesus.

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible
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He kept his word. He didn't use special pleading.
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