Scriptural literacy

[Piggy]

I read that sort of the opposite way. Moses seems to have taken the veil because it removed an excuse for interaction with the Israelites. In other words, the kvod was an obstacle created in the minds of the Israelites (as evidenced by Aaron's reaction) rather than an obstacle imposed by YHVH.

Paul, on the other hand, sees the veil as an obstacle created by Moses to separate the Israelites from their God.

Yeah, I agree with that, in a sense.

But actually, both are true.

The Israelites rightly feared the kvod. Their mistake was to think that the kvod reflected on Moses' face would kill them, but YHVH makes very clear that they would indeed die if they approached Him.

So Moses wore the veil to protect the people from the glare of the Glory of God, even reflected in his face, except when delivering the Word of God because it was too much to handle.

But Jesus delivers the Word of God and anyone can look upon Him.

So before Jesus, there was no human mediator, not even Moses. Moses merely translates God, reflects God. He is an imperfect vessel. And even so, the superhuman power of God is left untempered, so that even in reflection it is too much to absorb, like the blinding light of the sun reflected directly off the surface of a still pond.

But with Jesus, God becomes human, and in so doing, He allows us to experience Him in human terms, directly, with no veil. By God literally becoming human, we can, through Jesus, experience the presence of God without the blinding light, without fear.

In other words, when speaking through Moses, God still required a veil. But with Jesus, no veil is required. It is a more perfect vessel, and the paradox is that this vessel tempers God's presence in a way that the imperfect one could not. Only by becoming human could God be present with us in a way that requires no barriers.

 

[Hokulele]

In other words, when speaking through Moses, God still required a veil. But with Jesus, no veil is required. It is a more perfect vessel, and the paradox is that this vessel tempers God's presence in a way that the imperfect one could not. Only by becoming human could God be present with us in a way that requires no barriers.

Which also explains the prominence of the Holy Spook in Acts. I think I get it.

 

[Ethnikos]

That doesn't seem clear to me. How does a discussion of the kvod relate to Jesus' or Paul's opposition to animal sacrifice?

The ceremonial system involving animal sacrifices were intended to be made obsolete once what it was typical of came about. Despite its temporary nature, its introduction was attended by the glory of God.

 

[Piggy]

The ceremonial system involving animal sacrifices were intended to be made obsolete once what it was typical of came about. Despite its temporary nature, its introduction was attended by the glory of God.

That's a new one on me.

Do you have any scriptural and scholarly backing for that?

 

[Ethnikos]

Secondly, this talk of "power in the plasma field" has nothing to do with scripture.

I don't know what the technical term would be for light taking physical form.

 

[Elizabeth I]

That's a new one on me.

Do you have any scriptural and scholarly backing for that?

Not at the moment, but I'm pretty sure he'll write some up quick.

 

[Ethnikos]

That's a new one on me.

Do you have any scriptural and scholarly backing for that?

Feel free to let me know if you think I am delusional but I thought that was the central theme of Christianity, that Judaism was like a placeholder until the coming of Christ.

 

[Piggy]

Feel free to let me know if you think I am delusional but I thought that was the central theme of Christianity, that Judaism was like a placeholder until the coming of Christ.

Be that as it may, it still seems to me that you are putting a couple of different concepts into one basket and calling them both a pullet.

I don't see what the Glory of God has to do with the ritual practice of animal sacrifice.

You can't just take a passage from Paul regarding the Glory of God and say it's got something to do with abandoning animal sacrifice.

Do you see what I'm saying?

 

[Ethnikos]

But with Jesus, God becomes human, and in so doing, He allows us to experience Him in human terms, directly, with no veil. By God literally becoming human, we can, through Jesus, experience the presence of God without the blinding light, without fear.

In other words, when speaking through Moses, God still required a veil. But with Jesus, no veil is required. It is a more perfect vessel, and the paradox is that this vessel tempers God's presence in a way that the imperfect one could not. Only by becoming human could God be present with us in a way that requires no barriers.

Paul also says that Jesus is Spirit, so the glory is inside a person who believes, instead of the outward glory (of Moses) that fades away. An argument can be made that Paul is implying that Moses used the veil to hide the fact that the glory was leaving his face and becoming less and less intense.

 

[Piggy]

Paul also says that Jesus is Spirit, so the glory is inside a person who believes, instead of the outward glory (of Moses) that fades away. An argument can be made that Paul is implying that Moses used the veil to hide the fact that the glory was leaving his face and becoming less and less intense.

No, that argument cannot be made. It can only be made up.

 

[Ethnikos]

Be that as it may, it still seems to me that you are putting a couple of different concepts into one basket and calling them both a pullet.
I don't see what the Glory of God has to do with the ritual practice of animal sacrifice.
You can't just take a passage from Paul regarding the Glory of God and say it's got something to do with abandoning animal sacrifice.
Do you see what I'm saying?

3:10 For indeed, what had been glorious now has no glory because of the tremendously greater glory of what replaced it. 3:11 For if what was made ineffective came with glory, how much more has what remains come in glory!

What is this talking about? Something is replaced and something remains.
Jesus was what the old system pointed to and had no meaning outside of Jesus. What remains when the old system that included sacrifice was replaced, was the real sacrifice that is effective for abolishing sin, which is Jesus. The old system was only good for condemning us of sin and had no power in itself to grant us pardon. Paul says we now have freedom, which is the freedom from condemnation.

 

[Ethnikos]

No, that argument cannot be made. It can only be made up.

"Since,then, we have such a hope, we act with great boldness, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of that glory that was being set aside."

This could be understood to mean that Moses was hiding the fact that his glory was going away. I can not get into the head of Paul and find out that this was what he meant, but it seems as likely as not that he did.

 

[Piggy]

"Since,then, we have such a hope, we act with great boldness, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of that glory that was being set aside."

This could be understood to mean that Moses was hiding the fact that his glory was going away. I can not get into the head of Paul and find out that this was what he meant, but it seems as likely as not that he did.

I'm sorry, but it does not seem likely at all. The glory is not that of Moses. He was not attempting to hide anything fading within himself.

2 Cor 3 is quite clear. Paul is no hack. He's an excellent writer and explains himself very well.

He says "only in Christ is it set aside". The glory of the old covenant was always destined to be set aside. But that is not a glory within Moses.

I can see why you connect the issue of sacrifice and the concept of glory -- because Paul does in these chapters -- but it seems to me you're connecting them in a way that Paul does not.

Paul connects them by a third concept -- the replacement of the covenant of death (law/punishment) with the covenant of life (spirit/redemption). Through this transition from the old to the new covenant, animal sacrifice becomes unnecessary, and at the same time we are able to experience God directly, through Jesus as God in human form, rather than indirectly through Moses and the priests.

The unbearable face of God is set aside, and another face is turned toward us.

And it is this act which marks the end of sacrifice as well as the end of the need for the veil.

But this is not because anything within Moses waned.

 

[Greediguts]

I recently came across this site where you can ask questions regarding well, just about anything Jewish. I sent in a question asking for the reasons Moses wore a veil. Here is the e-mail response I received:
----
Moses did not know that his face had become radiant when God spoke to him. This happened when Moses was in the cave and God passed before him. (Exodus 34:6) From this Moses' face shone very brightly with a radiant gleam.

Some say that Moses received this radiance on his face when he took the second Tablets from God's Hands... It was from this closeness that Moses received the great light on his face.

Others say that Moses received this light from the sparks that emanated from God when He taught him the Torah...

Some say that Moses had this illumination ever since he was born.

This light came from the light that God made during the six days of creation. This was an extremely brilliant light...

This was a pure refined light and it could be used to see what was happening from one end of the world to the other.

However, God saw that people would be wicked and evil. He saw the people of the generation of the flood and the generation of separation [when the Tower of Babel was made]. God therefore set aside this light for the righteous in the World to Come.

God revealed this light to Adam, allowing him to see from one end of the world to the other. He also revealed it to King David. In describing it, King David said, "How great is Your Good that You have hidden away for those who fear You...

Moses had this great light when he was born. However when he lived with Pharaoh he lost it. God did not return it to him until he stood on Mount Sinai and received the Torah. When Moses looked at the Tablets this light returned to him. This was the brilliant radiance of Moses' face upon which it was impossible for a human being to gaze.

God granted this to Moses to teach people that everything comes from Him and that He has the power to change the direction of the world and to go against the laws of nature. Normally when a person eats and drinks much, his face glows. When he does not eat and drink his face becomes dull. However, Moses' face did not become dark and dull from his many fasts. It is true that he fasted for forty consecutive days three times, but his face became more radiant. It became so radiant that people could not look at it and they were afraid to come close to him.

From this we also learn the greatness and holiness of Moses. He had bound himself so close to God that he reached the level of the angels and became completely spiritual. This was something that no other human being had ever achieved.

Moses had such great attachment to God and immersion in the Torah that he did not even realize that his face was shining. The Torah therefore says, "Moses did not even know that his face had become radiant when God had spoken to him." Moses was not aware of his face's radiance because "God had spoken to him." Moses had immersed himself so deeply in the teachings that he was not aware of his own self...

At first the Israelites were able to gaze at the Glory of the Divine within seven barriers of fire. It is thus written, "And a vision of God's Glory was like consuming fire at the top of the mountain before the eyes of the Israelites." (Exodus 24:17)

Also at the Red Sea, the Israelites saw the Glory of the Divine. They said, "This is my God and I will enshrine Him." (Exodus 15:2) They were not afraid and did not tremble.
However after they sinned and made the Golden Calf, they were even afraid to look at the radiance of Moses' face.

This is something that can be understood logically. If a person is coming out of a lighted room it does not hurt him to look at the sunlight. However if a person has been in darkness and then looks at the sun, his eyes will be blinded. He will not be able to see anything and will have to close his eyes.

The same is true of the human soul. If a person does not defile his soul, it can see spiritual things. However if he defiles his soul through sin, its power of sight is diminished and it cannot see holy things.

This was true of the Israelites. At first when they received the Torah, their bodies and souls were so pure that they were almost completely spiritual. They could therefore look at the Glory of the Divine. However after they sinned and made the Golden Calf, their souls became dim. They could not even look at Moses' face. The Israelites were terrified when they saw Moses' face. They thought that the Divine Presence was there or that angels were accompanying him. When Moses saw how terrified they were he called out to them...

When Moses saw that the Israelites were terrified of him and were afraid to approach him, he understood that his face was radiant. Therefore, when he finished speaking to them and telling them what God had commanded, he placed a hood or veil over his face. Moses did this out of respect for the Divine light shining on his face. He did not want people to make common use of it because it was something highly sacred.

Whenever Moses came before God to speak with Him, he would remove the hood until he was ready to leave. He would then go out and speak to the Israelites, [telling them] what he had been commanded.

It would not be considered respectful to speak to the King with a mask on one's face. Besides this, Moses received more radiance from the Divine Presence.

From that day on, Moses' custom was as follows: When he came to speak with the Divine, he was without the hood for the reason we have stated. Also when he told the Israelites what God had commanded them, he would speak without the hood. This was so the Israelites would receive the spiritual benefit of that radiance when Moses taught them so that they would learn all the better. After Moses finished speaking to them he would place the hood back on his face. He did not want the people to derive any enjoyment from the Holy Light when they were involved in their own concerns.


Simcha Bart
AskMoses
-----

I also asked for their opinion of Paul's interpretation. Oddly enough, they chose to not answer that part of the question.

 

[Ethnikos]

Paul connects them by a third concept -- the replacement of the covenant of death (law/punishment) with the covenant of life (spirit/redemption). Through this transition from the old to the new covenant, animal sacrifice becomes unnecessary, and at the same time we are able to experience God directly, through Jesus as God in human form, rather than indirectly through Moses and the priests.

". . . for he kept one most invariable object always steadily before him, namely, that of benefiting those who were subjected to his authority, and of doing everything both in word and deed, with a view to their advantage, never omitting any opportunity of doing anything that might tend to their prosperity.
"But as he thought it a token of poverty of soul to be anxious about material wealth, he despised it as a blind thing, but he honored the far-sighted wealth of nature, and was as great an admirer as any one in the world of that kind of riches, as he showed himself to be in his clothes, and in his food, and in his whole system and manner of life, not indulging in any theatrical affectation of pomp and magnificence, but cultivating the simplicity and unpretending affable plainness of a private individual, but a sumptuousness which was truly royal, in those things which is becoming for a ruler and to abound in; and these things are, temperance, and fortitude, and continence, and presence of mind, and acuteness, and knowledge, and industry, and patience under evil, and contempt of pleasure, and justice, and exhortations to virtue and blame, and lawful punishment of offenders, and on the contrary, praise and honour to those who did well in accordance with law.
"Therefore, as he had utterly discarded all desire of gain and of those riches which are held in the highest repute among men, God honored him, and gave him instead the greatest and most perfect wealth; and this is the wealth of all the earth and sea, and of all the rivers, and of all the other elements, and all combinations whatever; for having judged him deserving of being made a partaker with Himself in the portion which he had reserved for Himself, He gave him the whole world as a possession suitable for His heir: therefore, every one of the elements obeyed him as its master, changing the power which it had in its nature and submitting to his commands. And perhaps there was nothing wonderful in this; for if it be true according to the proverb,—'That all the property of friends is common;' and if the prophet was truly called the friend of God, then it follows that he would naturally partake of God Himself and of all His possessions as far as he had need; for God possesses everything and is in need of nothing; but the good man has nothing which is properly his own, no, not even himself, but he has a share granted to him of the treasures of God as far as he is able to partake of them. And this is natural enough; for he is a citizen of the world; on which account he is not spoken of as enrolled as a citizen of any particular city in the habitable world, since he very appropriately has for his inheritance not a portion of a district, but the whole world.
"What more shall I say? Has he not also enjoyed an even greater communion with the Father and Creator of the universe, being thought unworthy of being called by the same appellation? For he was also called the god and king of the whole nation, and he is said to have entered into the darkness where God was; that is to say, into the invisible and shapeless, and incorporeal world, the essence, which is the model of all existing things, where he beheld things invisible to mortal nature; for, having brought himself and his whole life into the middle, as an excellently wrought picture, he established himself as a most beautiful and Godlike work, to be a model for all those who were inclined to imitate him.
"And happy are those who have been able to take, or have even diligently labored to take, a faithful copy of this excellence in their own souls; for let the mind, above all other parts, take the perfect appearance of virtue, and if that cannot be, at all events let it feel an unhesitating and unvarying desire to acquire that appearance; for indeed, there is no one who does not know that men in a lowly condition are imitators of men of high reputation, and that what they see, these last chiefly desire, towards that do they also direct their own inclinations and endeavors." (page 474, 475 of, The Works of Philo, Yonge)

Are you saying the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant is based on the one who represents it? According to Philo, Moses was the son of God, and the god and king of Israel. How is Jesus superior to Moses?

 

[Ethnikos]

I recently came across this site where you can ask questions regarding well, just about anything Jewish.

I also asked for their opinion of Paul's interpretation. Oddly enough, they chose to not answer that part of the question.

Oddly enough they do not want to quote directly Philo, who, though he was called "the Jew", is better loved by Christians.
Here is a quote from him that seems to back up your original post on the subject:

. . . before assuming that office, it was necessary to purify not only his soul but also his body, so that it should be connected with and defiled by no passion, but should be pure from everything which is of a mortal nature, from all meat and drink, . . . he neglected all meat and drink for forty days together, evidently because he had more excellent food than that in those contemplations with which he was inspired from above from heaven, by which also he was improved in the first instance in his mind, and, secondly, in his body, through his soul, increasing in strength and health both of body and soul, so that those who saw him afterwards could not believe that he was the same person.
For, having gone up into the loftiest and most sacred mountain in that district in accordance with the divine commands, a mountain which was very difficult of access and very hard to ascend, he is said to have remained there all that time without eating any of that food even which is necessary for life; and, as I said before, he descended again forty days afterwards, being much more beautiful in his face than when he went up, so that those who saw him wondered and were amazed, and could no longer endure to look upon him with their eyes, inasmuch as his countenance shone like the light of the sun.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

". . . for he kept one most invariable object always steadily before him, namely, that of benefiting those who were subjected to his authority, and of doing everything both in word and deed, with a view to their advantage, never omitting any opportunity of doing anything that might tend to their prosperity.
"But as he thought it a token of poverty of soul to be anxious about material wealth, he despised it as a blind thing, but he honored the far-sighted wealth of nature, and was as great an admirer as any one in the world of that kind of riches, as he showed himself to be in his clothes, and in his food, and in his whole system and manner of life, not indulging in any theatrical affectation of pomp and magnificence, but cultivating the simplicity and unpretending affable plainness of a private individual, but a sumptuousness which was truly royal, in those things which is becoming for a ruler and to abound in; and these things are, temperance, and fortitude, and continence, and presence of mind, and acuteness, and knowledge, and industry, and patience under evil, and contempt of pleasure, and justice, and exhortations to virtue and blame, and lawful punishment of offenders, and on the contrary, praise and honour to those who did well in accordance with law.
"Therefore, as he had utterly discarded all desire of gain and of those riches which are held in the highest repute among men, God honored him, and gave him instead the greatest and most perfect wealth; and this is the wealth of all the earth and sea, and of all the rivers, and of all the other elements, and all combinations whatever; for having judged him deserving of being made a partaker with Himself in the portion which he had reserved for Himself, He gave him the whole world as a possession suitable for His heir: therefore, every one of the elements obeyed him as its master, changing the power which it had in its nature and submitting to his commands. And perhaps there was nothing wonderful in this; for if it be true according to the proverb,—'That all the property of friends is common;' and if the prophet was truly called the friend of God, then it follows that he would naturally partake of God Himself and of all His possessions as far as he had need; for God possesses everything and is in need of nothing; but the good man has nothing which is properly his own, no, not even himself, but he has a share granted to him of the treasures of God as far as he is able to partake of them. And this is natural enough; for he is a citizen of the world; on which account he is not spoken of as enrolled as a citizen of any particular city in the habitable world, since he very appropriately has for his inheritance not a portion of a district, but the whole world.
"What more shall I say? Has he not also enjoyed an even greater communion with the Father and Creator of the universe, being thought unworthy of being called by the same appellation? For he was also called the god and king of the whole nation, and he is said to have entered into the darkness where God was; that is to say, into the invisible and shapeless, and incorporeal world, the essence, which is the model of all existing things, where he beheld things invisible to mortal nature; for, having brought himself and his whole life into the middle, as an excellently wrought picture, he established himself as a most beautiful and Godlike work, to be a model for all those who were inclined to imitate him.
"And happy are those who have been able to take, or have even diligently labored to take, a faithful copy of this excellence in their own souls; for let the mind, above all other parts, take the perfect appearance of virtue, and if that cannot be, at all events let it feel an unhesitating and unvarying desire to acquire that appearance; for indeed, there is no one who does not know that men in a lowly condition are imitators of men of high reputation, and that what they see, these last chiefly desire, towards that do they also direct their own inclinations and endeavors." (page 474, 475 of, The Works of Philo, Yonge)

Are you saying the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant is based on the one who represents it? According to Philo, Moses was the son of God, and the god and king of Israel. How is Jesus superior to Moses?

You seem to compare apples and oranges. First, Philo was a Platonist -- that passage reeks of his Platonist heritage, casting Moses not as a "god" (because that would be sacrilege), but as the one who has left the cave and returned after seeing the sun.

Paul, in his attempt to understand the resurrection experience, on the other hand, cast Jesus as the one who had been clearly chosen by God -- otherwise he would not have been raised from the dead. Since Paul knew that Jesus had "died on a tree" meaning that he was cursed, how could it be that he was favored by God? Yet, he must have been if resurrected, and Paul felt that he had direct evidence of this. So, Jesus must have died for others' sins -- the curse of dying on a tree -- and this death must have meant something. He constructed the idea of the new covenant of life. People could now "experience God" directly because of this sacrifice with no need for the intervention of someone like Moses.

It wasn't necessarily who the person was -- though Paul clearly seems to have thought Jesus blameless -- but the fact that God had chosen him in a particular way. In other words, it wasn't the person so much, as the act of God who now made Himself available to all humanity through Jesus' death. It would be wrong, from Paul's perspective I think, to focus too much on the person of Moses or Jesus in this regard; instead the focus should be on the gift that God now provided. That was more of Paul's focus.

Paul does not discuss Jesus in the same Platonist terms that Philo uses.

Moses could be the perfect Socratic hero for Philo or anyone else, but he still didn't serve the same function in Judaism that Jesus does in Christianity.

 

[Ethnikos]

He constructed the idea of the new covenant of life. People could now "experience God" directly because of this sacrifice with no need for the intervention of someone like Moses.

In this section of 2 Corinthians that we were discussing, Paul does not claim that Jesus is God, but spirit. So it would seem (according to your argument) that there still is "the intervention of someone" but he has gone one step further than Moses did. Moses showed the affects of being intimately close to a powerful spirit being, but Jesus actually became one (in this scheme).
To me, Jesus would have to be one and the same as whatever it was that Moses met and talked with on the mountain, if it were true that we now "experience God" directly. Paul does not come off, to me, as much of a trinitarian. He said "a mediator is between two parties but God and Jesus only adds up to one" (paraphrasing).

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

In this section of 2 Corinthians that we were discussing, Paul does not claim that Jesus is God, but spirit. So it would seem (according to your argument) that there still is "the intervention of someone" but he has gone one step further than Moses did. Moses showed the affects of being intimately close to a powerful spirit being, but Jesus actually became one (in this scheme).
To me, Jesus would have to be one and the same as whatever it was that Moses met and talked with on the mountain, if it were true that we now "experience God" directly. Paul does not come off, to me, as much of a trinitarian. He said "a mediator is between two parties but God and Jesus only adds up to one" (paraphrasing).

Not really, no. It was the fact that God has chosen Jesus to fulfill a role and had instituted the new covenant that was important. There was no longer a need for an intermediary. That was the significance of the tearing of the veil in the gospels -- God is now directly available to all with no need for the Holy of Holies.

 

[Piggy]

Are you saying the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant is based on the one who represents it? According to Philo, Moses was the son of God, and the god and king of Israel. How is Jesus superior to Moses?

I don't see the relevance of Philo.

The old covenants were established with the Patriarchs by God.

The new covenant was established by God through Christ Jesus with all of humanity.