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Brainster Versus Dylan Avery Debate September 10, 2009

From the video at post 259 Now that is grasping at straws and very funny. Why would anyone demolish a building using two different types of explosives? Worse one of them is not even an explosive.

Something suffered when people started interrupting each other.

Edit. The caller talked for far too long at the start. Callers should not make a speech, they should ask a simple question.

Actually you would use three very different types of explosives. A small burster (a very sharp explosive), a larger booster (more explosive but much more stable than the burster) and then the final explosive (entirely stable in almost all conditions) which takes out the target.

The problem lies at where the impacts do two things that cannot happen. The burster cannot survive the impacts and the booster cannot survive the fires seen after the impacts.

We all know that the buildings failed at or near the impact points. What do you suggest otherwise?
 
And in Round 2....

Tri and MystifieD versus Dylan and JFK..... and look what's that lumbering in from stage left? It's The Buffet Slayer.

Wow, Tri... This is the Internet Tough Guy of the group. Be careful, he's likely to get, um... wordy, or something.
 
But you would use only one type of final explosive. However the caller suggested two different types were used.

As you say the explosives cannot be present before the planes hit due to the fire. There would not be time to put them there afterwards. Hence logic states that no explosives were set off just before the building collapses. The more you think about explosives the more silly it gets.
 
Lol, the main difference is the new narrator. He says that over the distribution deal.
 
Yes. I was expecting him to say something like 'Since I made the movie I have learned a lot. We have many more supporters we have interviewed. The evidence for something is much stronger.' But he did not. He only mentioned cosmetic things.
 
"You saw steel from WTC 7"

"yes, but none was recovered cause NIST said so"

facepalm

Heh, yes, this for me was the pivotal moment, when I broke into giggles.

Oh, wait, just past the James interview - lots more lulz in future, methinks.

(listening to the podcast)

:D:D
 
So, after laying low for almost a year Dylan rises up and reclaims a high spot on 'douche-iest twoofer' ranking.

As I said before: Dylan, grow up.
 
Quick question. One of the callers in the end of the show mentions material scientists from Norway and France destroying the Jones paper on thermite. Can someone point me to where I can read these articles ? Are they online somewhere ?
 
I think that the callers made Dylan squirm, especially the KSM caller.

Pat you were excellent as expected!
 
Quick question. One of the callers in the end of the show mentions material scientists from Norway and France destroying the Jones paper on thermite. Can someone point me to where I can read these articles ? Are they online somewhere ?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151009

http://zelikow.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/norwegian-state-radio-initiates-public-debate-on-911-truth/
Can't find the original letter, and I have contacted the scientist, Dr. Ola Nilsen, but have not heard from him.

http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2009/04/active-thermitic-material-claimed-in.html

Also see
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/local_links.php?catid=18

for more Henry62 materials


You can also see the thread and analysis featuring sunstealer, and look for comments by Ryan Mackey and Dr. Frank Greening regarding heating capabilities of painted nanothermite (as postulated by Dr. Steven Jones).

Here's a link to some of Greenings' thoughts
http://the911forum.freeforums.org/active-thermitic-material-in-wtc-dust-t150.html
 
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I think that the callers made Dylan squirm, especially the KSM caller.

I'd love to hear Dylan's answer to the KSM question.

One of the other truthers at SLC said KSM should stay in prison whether he's guilty or not.

JFK said:
On the KSM issue...

In my opinion he should remain incarcerated regardless of whether he was involved in the events of 9/11 or not.

The man is obviously deranged and a menace to not only society but himself... Period.

That's sure an interesting glimpse into the concept of justice from a truther's point of view. He probably thinks the same thing about Bush, Cheney, and anyone else in power.
 
Hahahaha - Dylan doesn't know what "chain of custody" even means.

God, "Law and Order" and the CSI shows have guaranteed the just about everybody has a general idea of what Chain of Custody means.But not Dylan.
 
There were some good parts in the program, but I have to say that overall this debate reminded me a lot of the average person-versus-person (media) debate over the topics of the Holocaust or Creationism. The reason I say this isn't to make the implication that truthers are Nazis or religious zealots, but that the tenor and pattern of the way the argument points are presented are practically parallel in the flow of conversation. Brainster, all due respect to your appearance, the discussion got into quite a few instances of semantic conflict where Dylan would say one thing and you guys would state it wasn't factual, as well as vice versa. This is mostly due to the scattershot methodology of truther arguments that dip heavily into confirmation bias, but it tends to heavily water down the conversation. I will note, though, that the last comment you got in (Brainster) was excellent, and that more breakdowns like that are exactly what get the point across about how much pure cognitive dissonance and emotional pleading are involved in the truther arguments. Kudos on that.

I'm mentioning this primarily because I've been growing more and more fond of the methodology and approach that Michael Shermer takes when he has the opportunity to enter a debate, in that for topic like this that are bound and determined to turn into semantic battles of disparate claims, Shermer keeps directing the focus of the conversation onto the meta-issue of the tactics being used and the cognitive dissonance necessary to ignore what answers are available in order to present the "argument from the gaps" inherent in these types of presentations. Now naturally, when it comes to presentations like Screw Loose Change or the other debunkings of the claims made by truthers, there is merit and value to dissecting each one of their fantastic assertions. What I'm saying is that when the opportunity to present the case on a (somewhat) live medium takes place, you're never going to be afforded the time to address every one of the points asserted in the staccato of truther claims, and that the most effective counter-points made in such situations involve disarming their attempts to stay "on the attack" or diffusing their scatter-brained disparate litanies by directing the conversation back to a focus. On more than one occasion in the radio interview, I heard you (Brainster) or Rob do precisely those two things, but more often than not the conversation strayed into the less-focused manner that favors the truther mentality. And it's because of this that your average truther who listens to this is going to come away convinced that Dylan "won" the debate, while those who are sympathetic to your case are (on average) going to come away thinking you "won" the debate. In essence, the best chance a debunker is going to have with a truther in a debate is to have a "draw" as a result.

I'm not trying to offer too harsh a critique or to claim I would be any more efficient-- you guys obviously knew your stuff, which proved quite helpful in stopping Dylan short more than once-- but I just wanted to offer my observation in case you found it useful in any future opportunities in addressing truthers in media.
 
There were some good parts in the program, but I have to say that overall this debate reminded me a lot of the average person-versus-person (media) debate over the topics of the Holocaust or Creationism. The reason I say this isn't to make the implication that truthers are Nazis or religious zealots, but that the tenor and pattern of the way the argument points are presented are practically parallel in the flow of conversation. Brainster, all due respect to your appearance, the discussion got into quite a few instances of semantic conflict where Dylan would say one thing and you guys would state it wasn't factual, as well as vice versa. This is mostly due to the scattershot methodology of truther arguments that dip heavily into confirmation bias, but it tends to heavily water down the conversation. I will note, though, that the last comment you got in (Brainster) was excellent, and that more breakdowns like that are exactly what get the point across about how much pure cognitive dissonance and emotional pleading are involved in the truther arguments. Kudos on that.

I'm mentioning this primarily because I've been growing more and more fond of the methodology and approach that Michael Shermer takes when he has the opportunity to enter a debate, in that for topic like this that are bound and determined to turn into semantic battles of disparate claims, Shermer keeps directing the focus of the conversation onto the meta-issue of the tactics being used and the cognitive dissonance necessary to ignore what answers are available in order to present the "argument from the gaps" inherent in these types of presentations. Now naturally, when it comes to presentations like Screw Loose Change or the other debunkings of the claims made by truthers, there is merit and value to dissecting each one of their fantastic assertions. What I'm saying is that when the opportunity to present the case on a (somewhat) live medium takes place, you're never going to be afforded the time to address every one of the points asserted in the staccato of truther claims, and that the most effective counter-points made in such situations involve disarming their attempts to stay "on the attack" or diffusing their scatter-brained disparate litanies by directing the conversation back to a focus. On more than one occasion in the radio interview, I heard you (Brainster) or Rob do precisely those two things, but more often than not the conversation strayed into the less-focused manner that favors the truther mentality. And it's because of this that your average truther who listens to this is going to come away convinced that Dylan "won" the debate, while those who are sympathetic to your case are (on average) going to come away thinking you "won" the debate. In essence, the best chance a debunker is going to have with a truther in a debate is to have a "draw" as a result.

I'm not trying to offer too harsh a critique or to claim I would be any more efficient-- you guys obviously knew your stuff, which proved quite helpful in stopping Dylan short more than once-- but I just wanted to offer my observation in case you found it useful in any future opportunities in addressing truthers in media.

Valid criticism is always appreciated. I do think at times that what I call the "nuclear option" is better than responding to individual points. For example, if the Truthers bring up the claim that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon and start listing their bullet points (not enough wreckage, flight controllers thought it was military, etc.) it's useful to go with the argument that "You believe that large planes hit the World Trade Center, right? Then why would the plotters use something else to hit the Pentagon?"

Of course, remembering that in the heat of the moment can be tricky.
 
Which is funny because he complained about 3 times that they were changing the subject.

I thought that was great. The caller repeatedly tried to get back on the subject of KSM and all Dylan would do was talk about Bin Laden.

He changed the subject a LOT. I noticed several times the host asked him some very direct questions and he answered with something completely different. I like that the host called him on that more than once.

Couple of other gems:

Dylan said that Pat should interview all of the people who sent Jones samples shortly before admitting that he only interviewed one of the 4 because he "didn't have time to track down the others".

When pressed about the statements made by LC producer Jason Bermas, Dylan repeatedly kept denying having made the statements himself. No, Dylan, but your LCFC producer did and you kept it on the DVD.

LOVED Pat's example of the blacksmith when Dylan tried to claim that the steel structure would wick the heat away. It's too bad we didn't get to hear dylan's response to that. (Of course he probably would have just gone back to OBL or the commission)

As always, excellent Job, Pat & callers.
 
Listening to the podcast now. Dylan is such a whiny, petulant child. At least that's how he came off.

Interesting little note, the caller "James" is Nathan "Hijacking the Wal-Mart Intercom For 9/11 truth" Moulton's buddy with Calgary 9/11 truth. He's also WTC7WasPulled on youtube and, amazingly enough, has put up a video of his call... bragging about how well it went, in the long truther tradition of voluntarily posting videos where they look like idiots, thinking they look good in it all. Here's the stunningly delusional info portion posted with the video.


A Truther posted this video?! He actually thinks that it makes him look good?!

I need a laughing dog.
 
A Truther posted this video?! He actually thinks that it makes him look good?!

I need a laughing dog.

Truthers are famous for putting videos of themselves behaving badly and acting like its the best thing ever. Most of the time they put up videos of what they think is them pwning somebody, but in fact they are being complete nutbars.

My favorite was Jon Gold's video of him 'confronting' Abby Scott. It was him basically being a jerk to her and not letting her get a word in edgewise. He put it up on a 911 site with a lot of patting himself on the back. But even most of the truthers there said we was acting like a jerk in the video and he took it down.

Also remember: The video of Bermas saying the FDNY was paid off was put up by Truthers. Why? Because they thought that it was cool when Bermas had quick 'answers' for Abby and Gravy and thus pwned them. Oops.
 

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