Reagan's Legacy - Good, Bad, or Ugly

[Baylor]

I've got a case of cognitive dissonance. Maybe you can help me out here. Was Ronald Reagan a good president? Depends on your socio-economic status (SES) and political ideology, I guess.

He was an extremely skilled speaker and diplomat. He helped bring a peaceful end to a conflict that threatened civilization. He brought unemployment down significantly and helped spawn a decade of growth and excess. He negotiated with militants and did not give them the silent treatment.

His "laissez faire" business policies helped to shape the current financial crisis. His attitudes on social problems, like workers' rights, consumers' rights, the AIDS epidemic, were deplorable. Because he was such a persuasive speaker, he paved the way for other conservatives to use political rhetoric and not address real world problems. Although he was not a religious man, he made frequent references to god as a political tool and that led to the entanglement of church and state that we see today in U.S. politics. He helped make America a backwards country by Western standards. He was an ideologue, not a pragmatist.

 

[Bikewer]

When Ronnie passed, there were a couple of discussion shows on NPR dealing with his "legacy". There are those on the right that see him as some sort of God incarnate, and speak his name in hushed tones to this day.
It's almost as if weapons-for-hostages and Ollie North's little war run from the basement of the White house (without the President's knowledge, of course) never happened.

 

[Baylor]

There are those on the right that see him as some sort of God incarnate, and speak his name in hushed tones to this day..

No one does this more than Hannity.

 

[sugarb]

I don't think I'd blame Reagan for the mixing of Church and State. That happened quite a long time before him.

 

[leftysergeant]

I've got a case of cognitive dissonance. Maybe you can help me out here. Was Ronald Reagan a good president?

In the long run, I would say he was the second-worst in my life time.

He was an extremely skilled speaker and diplomat. He helped bring a peaceful end to a conflict that threatened civilization.

The Communists are still there and may rise again to pose a threat. He dragged his feet and did not let Gorby stand down in an orderly fashion. He HAD TO be seen as having defeated the USSR, when it had, in fact, fallen apart under Carter. He was a rotten diplomat. He was a bully. Instead of a peaceful transition from communist dictatorship to liberal capitalism, Russia degenerated into a kakiocracy in which the well-to-do prospered, sometimes through criminal means, and the poor got poorer with no safety net.

He brought unemployment down significantly and helped spawn a decade of growth and excess.

Most of the jobs that Reagan created were in the vapor ware sector and the working class had to accept reduced wages and benfits. It was all done on someone else's credit card.

His "laissez faire" business policies helped to shape the current financial crisis. His attitudes on social problems, like workers' rights, consumers' rights, the AIDS epidemic, were deplorable. Because he was such a persuasive speaker, he paved the way for other conservatives to use political rhetoric and not address real world problems. Although he was not a religious man, he made frequent references to god as a political tool and that led to the entanglement of church and state that we see today in U.S. politics. He helped make America a backwards country by Western standards. He was an ideologue, not a pragmatist.[/QUOTE]

And he was so mentally impaired that he actually bought his own BS.

Sucked, totally.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Kakistocracy.

 

[a_unique_person]

I'm just waiting for the first building or facility that was renamed to be a "Ronald Reagan" building or facility to be renamed to "Barak Obama".

 

[Baylor]

In the long run, I would say he was the second-worst in my life time.

Sucked, totally.

Who was the first?

 

[Slayhamlet]

Who was the first?

Pretty sure he means Bush Jr.

 

[GreyICE]

I think his legacy was decided when he secretly negotiated a deal with terrorists to prolong the suffering and danger of American citizens and provided the terrorists with weapons needed to kill people, in order to influence the election.

I do think that's just about as good as it gets, and everything after that was piss icing a crap cake.

 

[Tricky]

Reagan's administration started on a scandal. The Iran hostages were released, after a lengthy delay, on the day Reagan took office. It is likely that this was co-ordinated by the Reagan administration, seeing as how he soon afterwards sold arms to Iran, the country that had kidnapped our diplomats.

This was only a small part of the Iran/Contra scandal which saw the USA support some of the most loathsome terrorists in Latin America. Guys who would murder nuns.

In addition to this scandal, there was the savings and loan scandal and bailout, a direct result of Reagan's deregulation of the industry. This led to the deficit of the early 1990s that doomed GHW Bush's re-election.

Also worth mentioning was the HUD scandal where federal gave money intended for low-income housing to "supportive" constituants. Six administration officials were convicted in this, including former Secretary of the Interior James Watt. Watt, a born-again Christian who believed there was no need to preserve federal lands because God was coming soon, had resigned earlier for embarassing the administration with a sexist, racist bigoted joke.

Reagan's Chief of Staff and Press Secretary were both convicted of crimes associated with the Lobbying Scandal, though one of these convictions was later overturned.

Rita Lavelle, a Reagan nominee for a high post in the EPA was convicted of misusing Superfund money to enhance her environmental consulting firm.

There's more. Much more. The Reagan adminstration was, IMO, the most corrupt of the last sixty years. Maybe longer, but I haven't looked that far back. I seem to recall hearing that there were more officials of his administration convicted of crimes than any other in history.

And they gave us Oliver North.

 

[Tricky]

I don't think I'd blame Reagan for the mixing of Church and State. That happened quite a long time before him.

He made religion a much bigger political issue by making a deal with the devil. Jerry Falwell railed from the pulpit against Democrats, and in turn, the Regan administration gave religion much more power to have a say in political decisions. He polarized religion, especially fundamentalism, into the right wing. Before that, it had been mostly split.

 

[Mr.D]

I seem to recall hearing that there were more officials of his administration convicted of crimes than any other in history.

IIRC, it was (also?) most corruption related indictments.

 

[corplinx]

His "laissez faire" business policies helped to shape the current financial crisis

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[Baylor]

<snip>

You might want to read this book before spamming my thread. If you have something to contribute, please do it. Any more spamming will be reported.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think I'd blame Reagan for the mixing of Church and State. That happened quite a long time before him.

He triggered the movement we see today, however. The "Young Republicans" were at the forefront of the Jerry Falwell movement and some of the other Evangelical movements into politics. Reagan was responsible for promoting that group.

But long before Reagan there was that business where Commies were evil atheists which is when 'trust in God' was added to the pledge of allegiance. So. no it didn't start with Reagan.

I do believe Reagan truly inspired the early movement which led to the right wing Evangelical takeover of the Republic Party we have today.

Reagan was a bad President IMO. He promoted anti-humanist causes in many countries in the name of fighting communism. That is another one of his really negative legacies that rarely gets mentioned in the mainstream news.

His tax cuts stimulating the economy was a farce. If you pump cash into an economy it grows. But Reagan left huge deficits behind. That's like saying, look how well off I am, when you have a ton of crap you bought on credit that isn't paid for yet. That's fine if you really need to stimulate the economy. But Reagan did it to make the rich better off. It failed to make the country better off of course, but the bad news came on Bush Sr's watch. That made Reagan look good and Bush look bad. But those policies started with Reagan, not Bush Sr.

Clinton did a much better job with the economy. Then Bush Jr went back to the Reagan policies and look what happened. Big economic crash. It would probably have occurred sooner had Bush not been pumping borrowed from the Chinese money into the economy via the military spending. Spending borrowed money only stimulated the economy temporarily. Multiple factors resulted in the bubble bursting.

Hopefully Obama will make wiser decisions and the public won't just vote for slogans promising tax cuts as if we don't need to pay for anything like roads and schools.

 

[SezMe]

Actually, corp, I think his "laissez faire" business policies have had the largest and most lasting impact on Rep politics to this day. His administration is characterized by his famous saying

I think the nine most dangerous words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".

To this day, the notion of government as part of the problem and not part of the solution is ideological mantra on the right. It is, for example, central to the Republican approach to health care.

 

[corplinx]

You might want to read this book before spamming my thread. If you have something to contribute, please do it. Any more spamming will be reported.

I don't need to read a book to spam a thread. Not that I am spamming a thread. The facepalm is a way of saying "not this crap again".

Even after the mainstream democrats had left the "its Reagans fault" meme for the financial collapse, since it was basically a campaign meme to tie the crisis to republicans, I am sorry to see that some still cling to yesterday's memes.

I'm not even sure how I am supposed to have a rational debate with an idea that is so divorced from reality. Dawkins' idea was to just laugh off such ideas and not debate them seriously since that would appear to give them some form of credit since you think they are serious enough to debate.

The reason why that meme is so frustrating is because the other memes based on that faulty logic are also outright laughed at or dismissed as kookery.

Take this exchange:
"The Federal Reserve System shaped the financial collapse."
"Well... technically I guess that statement is true but to imply that-"
"So you agree with me?"
"No but-"
"But you just said it was true"
"Well, lots of things shaped-"
"Did you know that the Federal Reserve has been involved in every financial crisis since its founding?"
"Well, wouldn't it have to be by its function involved somehow?"
"IM ASKING TEH QUESTIONS HERRE!"

See, here is how I would handle this kookery if I were in public and not on a forum with decorum rules:
"The Federal Reserve System shaped the financial collapse."
"What are you, retarded?"

See, much better.

"Jimmy Carter helped shape the financial collapse!"
"What are you, retarded?"

See how it fits the right wing woo as well as it does the Paulista woo.

"Ronald Reagan helped shape the financial collapse!"

So, I can either get lulled into rebutting a point which is unfalsifiable since _every_ president _ever_ (except for maybe Harrison and Garfield) in some way shaped the country as it is today, or I can express the facepalm I would perform in real life.

I am actually offended by the notion that such a heartfelt display of emotion from me would be called spam.

 

[sugarb]

He triggered the movement we see today, however. The "Young Republicans" were at the forefront of the Jerry Falwell movement and some of the other Evangelical movements into politics. Reagan was responsible for promoting that group.

But long before Reagan there was that business where Commies were evil atheists which is when 'trust in God' was added to the pledge of allegiance. So. no it didn't start with Reagan.

I do believe Reagan truly inspired the early movement which led to the right wing Evangelical takeover of the Republic Party we have today.

Reagan was a bad President IMO. He promoted anti-humanist causes in many countries in the name of fighting communism. That is another one of his really negative legacies that rarely gets mentioned in the mainstream news.

His tax cuts stimulating the economy was a farce. If you pump cash into an economy it grows. But Reagan left huge deficits behind. That's like saying, look how well off I am, when you have a ton of crap you bought on credit that isn't paid for yet. That's fine if you really need to stimulate the economy. But Reagan did it to make the rich better off. It failed to make the country better off of course, but the bad news came on Bush Sr's watch. That made Reagan look good and Bush look bad. But those policies started with Reagan, not Bush Sr.

Clinton did a much better job with the economy. Then Bush Jr went back to the Reagan policies and look what happened. Big economic crash. It would probably have occurred sooner had Bush not been pumping borrowed from the Chinese money into the economy via the military spending. Spending borrowed money only stimulated the economy temporarily. Multiple factors resulted in the bubble bursting.

Hopefully Obama will make wiser decisions and the public won't just vote for slogans promising tax cuts as if we don't need to pay for anything like roads and schools.

Hello Skeptigirl, and you, too, Tricky. I'm going to jump off this post, since it mentioned Clinton as well. Actually, thinking about Reagan makes me think about the early years of really getting interested in politics.

Skeptigirl, you mentioned the Young Republicans, and I had a flashback My first boyfriend was a YR, five years older than myself. I can recall early on how he would talk about God and country, about "the gays" and racial groups, about "preserving our country"...and I really didn't get it, because he wasn't a Christian. If I recall correctly, the most bizarre aspect of Reagan and Falwell was the claim of the Reagans using astrology or tarot cards or whatever kind of heebyjeeby stuff they did.

Still, I like Reagan (remember, I was a teenager), until the whole Oliver North thing. I remember thinking to myself, what kind of President would hang this guy out on a limb to be beat like a pinata, when everyone *knew* that Reagan was as deep in it as anyone else. I lived with my grandmother and great grandmother at the time...strong Democrats, and I recall even their anger about what was being done to Oliver North. I figured they'd be dancing a jig or something...but they were truly outraged. It was at that time that I became a little suspicious about some other aspects of his Presidency...and I have to say that there has been at least one more Republican president I've been suspicious about after an appointment he made, but that's another discussion.

I had forgotten about Falwell (I tend to pretend he isn't real). I had forgotten how his words appealed to not Christians so much as young white men full of a lot of hatred that had been barely concealed until they had a leader on the national stage. (As a sort of interesting side, that boyfriend of mine had this idea that women were "things", to be seen and not heard, much like children. As it turned out, his father was also abusive to his mother, and neither had any concept of faith or fidelity...so it was a lesson hard learned. Strangely, though, I consider it one of the most important things I had to learn the hard way, so I don't regret it.)

Skeptigirl, I think Clinton was probably one of the best Presidents, fiscally, that we've ever had. I definitely think he was the best President in my lifetime.

I am wondering now if the militias/freemen got started during the Reagan years, or if I'm just ignorant of their history.

 

[Praktik]

He triggered the movement we see today, however. The "Young Republicans" were at the forefront of the Jerry Falwell movement and some of the other Evangelical movements into politics. Reagan was responsible for promoting that group.

But long before Reagan there was that business where Commies were evil atheists which is when 'trust in God' was added to the pledge of allegiance. So. no it didn't start with Reagan.

I do believe Reagan truly inspired the early movement which led to the right wing Evangelical takeover of the Republic Party we have today.

Yes, but also in a secular manner. Reagan really REALLy harped on "the government is the problem" approach to politics (which you can see is still thriving on this message board in certain threads). This ideology is essentially anti-government in all respects and he pioneered the approach that the Reagan Revolution 2.0 (Bush jr) perfected: appointing people to the heads of departments they personally despised and wanted to "hollow out", (people whose politics were in direct conflict with the stated mission of the departments they were heading), contempt for the public workforce, the discouraging of top talent from joining government, and "a movement that understands the liberal state as a perversion and considers the market the ideal nexus of human society"

This I think, is probably an even more important and longer-lasting legacy than his courting of the moral majority. I do believe we're seeing THAT particular brand of Republican politics starting to wane.

But the anti-government stuff has really only gained traction among the party faithful and I don't think its going to go away anytime soon.