Amway TV ad

[Skeptic]

Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

Yes, but most university courses aren't the kind of repetitive drivel (in effect, "keep doing Amway even as you're losing your behind") that Amway tapes are. Just because manure is cheaper than cream doesn't mean it's a reason to put it in your coffee.

 

[icerat]

I can't type a long response on my phone but I did notice that icerat has a buddy thAt qualifies at ruby. Sounds like an ideal candidate for my challenge to bring someone on and talk about how great their specific business is. How about it icerat? Ask your friend to answer some questions? Not holding my breath. ..

Let me see, there's the Amway Talk forums with IBOs all over the world, including platinums and above. There's blogs and MySpace and FaceBook profiles from IBOs all over the world, including platinums and above, even Diamonds and above. There are open meetings all over the world where you can go and meet platinums, emeralds, diamonds and above and ask them whatever you want.

But will you go and ask them? Nope, you want them to come and talk to you anonymous folk here. People who, when I've made claims, simply reject them and say I'm lying. Why on earth would I invite any of my friends to do that? (and I have friends at much higher level than ruby).

I think I'm mostly wasting my time talking to you and I shouldn't be doing it. Alas I'm weak ... but I'm certainly not going to encourage anyone else to do it. Anyone who has built any type of significant Amway business already knows it's a waste of time.

If you want to know, you go and ask. Nobody is hiding.

 

[Cuddles]

Anyone who has built any type of significant Amway business already knows it's a waste of time.

Indeed.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Doesn't this weakness apply to your entire ibofightback persona? Why is this forum the one innapropriate place for you to post? Because we are actually skeptical?

You are the one evangelizing here. Yet you won't even ASK your friend to drop by and talk about his real business?

Do you realize that not a shred of evidence has been presented that anyone except tools kingpins make any PROFIT in amway at all? Ask your buddy for profit/loss statements for a couple of years. Oops you cAn't as talking about profits is forbidden in amway.

 

[Skeptic]

Amway folks go on and on about how much you save percentage wise and how much doing Amway is good relative to the income in poorer countries for a simple reason: this allows one to not be explicit about the actual, pathetic, monetary amounts.

"Join Amway and get 70% rebate!" / "Join Amway and make more than 78% of Venezuelans!" (or whatever) is really way to NOT say the truth -- "join Amway, you might make about $150 a month if you work very, very hard!".

I am not quoting exact figures (or countries) but that's the main idea.

Again -- what's the point? It's a LOT of very hard work for nothing. You're better off working part time at McDonald's than working at Amway. You'll certainly make more money.

 

[icerat]

Doesn't this weakness apply to your entire ibofightback persona? Why is this forum the one innapropriate place for you to post? Because we are actually skeptical?

This forum is neither appropriate nor inappropriate. The "problem" is that people like yourself have made it perfectly clear you have zero interest in evaluating facts and evidence and you simply dismiss anything that does not fit your world view. Your position is more one of a "true believer" than a skeptic.

You are the one evangelizing here. Yet you won't even ASK your friend to drop by and talk about his real business?

I'm doing no evangelizing at all. I'm merely pointing out where your logic/facts/claims are wrong. I'm not going to ask anyone else to drop by here to waste their time when in my opinion I'm wasting my time. Come to think of it, when I first got involved in this thread I even got a couple of PMs from other members telling me they agreed with me an knew the business worked but advising I shouldn't bother with the thread because it would be a waste of my time. They were right.

But when you continue to state outright falsehoods I find it difficult to stand idly by.

Do you realize that not a shred of evidence has been presented that anyone except tools kingpins make any PROFIT in amway at all?

Gotta love that circular logic. Who is a "tool kingpin"? Anyone who can profit from reselling the "tools" as well as Amway. Who can do that? Anyone who has built to Platinum or higher - ie, they're making reasonable money from Amway.

So ... your complaint is that the majority of people making money from Amway are ... the people making money from Amway.

Apart from which, that's not even true. I provided links to discussions with a number of IBOs who were below platinum talking about being profitable. I provided myself as an example of someone who was profitable.

Hec, last month I didn't spent a cent on my Amway business, and had 5 separate people ask me to get them some products. Oh, I mislead. I paid a small shipping fee on the order to get their products.

But you just continue to ignore it.

Ask your buddy for profit/loss statements for a couple of years. Oops you cAn't as talking about profits is forbidden in amway.

Again you're just spouting crap. Talking about profits is not "forbidden in amway". It is however forbidden by the FTC. "higher pins" know this stuff, they receive training and advice from Amway about it. I provided you with a link to the legal discussion on that info ...

But you just continue to ignore it.

Amway folks go on and on about how much you save percentage wise and how much doing Amway is good relative to the income in poorer countries for a simple reason: this allows one to not be explicit about the actual, pathetic, monetary amounts.

Which Amway folk "go on and on" about this stuff? I certainly don't.

"Join Amway and get 70% rebate!" / "Join Amway and make more than 78% of Venezuelans!" (or whatever) is really way to NOT say the truth -- "join Amway, you might make about $150 a month if you work very, very hard!".

It's not hard to make $150/mth.

I am not quoting exact figures (or countries) but that's the main idea.

You're taking a self-selecting group of clueless Amway IBOs and deciding it's what all Amway IBOs do, with zero evidence to support such an assumption, and plenty that discredits it.

Again -- what's the point? It's a LOT of very hard work for nothing. You're better off working part time at McDonald's than working at Amway. You'll certainly make more money.

Again you make claims with zero evidence to support it, and ignore evidence contrary to it. A skeptic makes decisions based on all available evidence. You refuse to do that. You've decided what you believe and simply dismiss anything contrary to it. As such, for this topic at least, you're little better than a fundamentalist religious nut.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Yeah but McDonalds is a j.o.b. and therefore you are a loser! Whereas in amway you are one of the chosen people who really have the world figured out!

So to summarize this thread amway is the greatest business in the world, but no, we won't show you a P/L statement for a business that actually makes money. Everything has to be a confusing blob of mumbo jumbo about past businesses given to wives and future businesses in the country you don't live in. Oh and the tools are as good as a university education. Does that about cover it?

 

[icerat]

Yeah but McDonalds is a j.o.b. and therefore you are a loser! Whereas in amway you are one of the chosen people who really have the world figured out!

<snip blah blah blah>

There you go again, just just making stuff up. I guess one has to do that sometimes in order to deal with the cognitive dissonance that occurs when the real world just refuses to conform to your chosen belief system.

Pages and pages back I gave you links to financial statements. You ignored them. I've given you theory. I've given you fact. i've given you resource after resource to get more info and independently confirm what I'm saying. You ignore it. You just know what you know and nothing is going to change it.

Let's just go get on with our lives, ok? If it makes you happy, I'll reveal the truth. Nobody buys Amway products. The packages are actually all empty. The mile long manufacturing plants are in fact holograms. Amway's leaders have infiltrated the world banking system and have been doing fake deposits into bank accounts such that they appear on the statements, but they're not real! And yes, the tens of thousands of platinums and above are actually all paid actors. Indeed, Amway has infiltrated almost every government in the world and bribed people to ignore the fact it's a scam. They've even bribed judges around the world to accept fake evidence in things as mundane as income statements in divorce settlements! And the awards for everything for environmentalism (UN) to consumer product awards (readers digest, consumerlabs, UK beauty awards etc etc etc) .... all faked! Scientific papers? Faked! Free trips for achievers? Faked! They just hired chinese looking people in Australia, they didn't actually send thousands of real chinese from china, that would be absurd! It's all just one huge world encompassing conspiracy!!

You're right, you caught us. It's all over now. We're turning off the holograms, all the actors have been fired, and we're going to revert to our lizard form shortly before departing for Planet X.

Congratulations Newton Trino, Skeptic you've saved the world!

 

[Almo]

Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

That's like comparing Scientology certificates to univeristy diplomas. University diplomas are worth something in the real world. Put all that time spent on Amway training on your resume and see how far it gets you outside the MLM world.

 

[Porkchopjim]

The "problem" is that people like yourself have made it perfectly clear you have zero interest in evaluating facts and evidence and you simply dismiss anything that does not fit your world view. Your position is more one of a "true believer" than a skeptic.

Mirror, anyone?

But when you continue to state outright falsehoods I find it difficult to stand idly by.

Because any and all falsehoods are reserved for the express purpose of making Amway look not only legitimate, but a good idea.

So ... your complaint is that the majority of people making money from Amway are ... the people making money from Amway.

Not what anybody said. But again, see 'falsehoods.'

Hec, last month I didn't spent a cent on my Amway business, and had 5 separate people ask me to get them some products. Oh, I mislead. I paid a small shipping fee on the order to get their products.

5 whole people! That's some amazing demand! How much PV did that earn you, by the way?

That's a great story, by the way. You should make a CD and sell it to other Amway salesmen as a 'motivator.'

Again you're just spouting crap. Talking about profits is not "forbidden in amway". It is however forbidden by the FTC.

Lie. Period. Discussing profit is not forbidden by the FTC.

MISREPRESENTING profit, OR THE CHANCE OF MAKING ANY AT ALL, is forbidden.

Thanks for paying attention.

As such, for this topic at least, you're little better than a fundamentalist religious nut.

Because I think we all know who fills THAT roll in this discussion...

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Whether Amway is a good business for someone doesn't really depend on stats like this anyway. What matters is their goals, their drive, and their circumstances, whether there's real products with a real market, and whether there's enough profit available to make it viable.

I agree with this. I'm not convinced there is a real market outside the pyramid for the vast majority of MLMs.

 

[Tex2]

All this back and forth BS on jobs, P/L statements, wives, countries, university education, etc., is a smokescreen for the REAL issue, the tool scam. The tool scam, THAT covers it. LOL

 

[Skeptic]

So to summarize this thread amway is the greatest business in the world, but no, we won't show you a P/L statement for a business that actually makes money.

Yes, because that's PRIVATE, you see. You're supposed to join the business not because you have hard facts about how much your upline makes, but because you BELIEVE what they SAY they make.

Trust your upline. That is very, VERY important in Amway, you know.

 

[Porkchopjim]

Interesting how both Icerat (here) and Amway (when legally challenged, as example FTC v. Amway) quickly adopt the Corn Po' “Aw, shucks, we ain't nothing but a little mom-and-pop vitamin and soap company that most members join to order the great products that are offered...” on the one hand...

...while within the ranks, it's all about “Living the life of dreams, staying at home, vacationing at will, and never having another financial worry in the world because Amway big-shots roll that way.”

The magazine is called 'Achieve' – not 'You define your own success' and there are NO STORIES about anyone pleased that they had 5 customers last month.

 

[NewtonTrino]

<snip blah blah blah>

There you go again, just just making stuff up. I guess one has to do that sometimes in order to deal with the cognitive dissonance that occurs when the real world just refuses to conform to your chosen belief system.

I'm not making anything up. In fact a regular job is highly frowned up in amway as is starting any other kind of business. This is a FACT that you are simply lying about. You can try to deny this or twist it but this is part of amway culture whether you like it or not.

 

[NewtonTrino]

All this back and forth BS on jobs, P/L statements, wives, countries, university education, etc., is a smokescreen for the REAL issue, the tool scam. The tool scam, THAT covers it. LOL

As much as you would like to make the tool scam the only issue we have to deal with reality. Yes the tools scam is a huge problem. It's just not the only problem.

 

[icerat]

I agree with this. I'm not convinced there is a real market outside the pyramid for the vast majority of MLMs.

For all the things that call themselves MLM, we're in agreement - but then virtually by definition they're not MLMs, they're illegal pyramids.

 

[NewtonTrino]

For all the things that call themselves MLM, we're in agreement - but then virtually by definition they're not MLMs, they're illegal pyramids.

Do you not see how absolutely disingenuous it is to just play around with definitions? You've gotten so used to spinning that you can't stop! amway is CLEARLY an multi level marketing (MLM) based system.

No response on the JOB thing? Do you deny that J.O.B.'s and other businesses are frowned up as part of amway culture? Be careful how you answer here Icerat! I want a YES or a NO answer to this on. You can put your spin after the YES or NO.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Interesting how both Icerat (here) and Amway (when legally challenged, as example FTC v. Amway) quickly adopt the Corn Po' “Aw, shucks, we ain't nothing but a little mom-and-pop vitamin and soap company that most members join to order the great products that are offered...” on the one hand...

...while within the ranks, it's all about “Living the life of dreams, staying at home, vacationing at will, and never having another financial worry in the world because Amway big-shots roll that way.”

The magazine is called 'Achieve' – not 'You define your own success' and there are NO STORIES about anyone pleased that they had 5 customers last month.

This is an excellent point and one of the reasons I would love Icerat to answer my job question. Simply put amway distributors consider themselves to be in the "best opportunity in the world" and if you do anything else you are a chump and a loser. On the inside the business is built up in peoples heads and I think your description above is clear evidence of this.

 

[icerat]

Do you not see how absolutely disingenuous it is to just play around with definitions? You've gotten so used to spinning that you can't stop! amway is CLEARLY an multi level marketing (MLM) based system.

Yes, Amway uses MLM. It also has products with legitimate market demand. The FTC has clearly stated that one of the major issues in determining whether a scheme is a pyramid or not is the motivation for purchase. This means, and I've said it before on this thread, that people can operate Amway in a model that would be deemed an illegal pyramid. This is one of the reasons why TEAM was kicked out a few years ago, the corp believed they were doing this.

Whether multilevel marketing encompasses both pyramid scams using multilevel compensation and legal companies doing so is up for debate. The US/Canada/EU etc all define multilevel marketing as legal and pyramid schemes as illegal. Clearly that means if you're operating a pyramid scheme using a multilevel compensation plan, then you're not multilevel marketing.

I fully accept however that many people use the word multilevel marketing to mean more than the legal definition. In my opinion that confusion is a major issue for the industry.

No response on the JOB thing? Do you deny that J.O.B.'s and other businesses are frowned up as part of amway culture? Be careful how you answer here Icerat! I want a YES or a NO answer to this on. You can put your spin after the YES or NO.

NO. Jobs are not frowned upon as part of "Amway culture".

Are jobs belittled within parts of Amway? Absolutely. The issue is that despite your continued assertion to the contrary, there is no monolithic "Amway culture". Amway's founders have explictly come out against the anti-job type of culture that some groups promote. I for one, affiliating with the single largest Amway organisation in the world, listening to
materials from multiple markets, including the US, and having attended seminars in multiple countries, have never once heard for example the "J.O.B. = just over broke" saying from any leaders withing that organisation. Not once. Same with "broke losers" and similar terms.

The magazine is called 'Achieve' – not 'You define your own success' and there are NO STORIES about anyone pleased that they had 5 customers last month. [/url]

Porkchopjim

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for civility - moderated thread

claims he's been registered as an IBO for I think several years now. That means he received this Achieve Magazine last year which featured a number of new IBOs on the cover and covered their retailing success inside. Similar stories are in Amagrams around the world. He'd also be aware of the list of "Fast Track" qualifiers published in every Achieve since it was introduced. Fast Track is an incentive program that has retail customers as one of it's requirements.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for civility - moderated thread