Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[zooterkin]

And the apostles were different from Muslim martyrs also and I'll say why when I get the time.

When you can come up with a convincing argument that doesn't sink your own, you mean? Well, thinking it through would be good, carry on.

 

[pakeha]

There is a difference between a lot of people just believing something is true and a lot of people in different areas and at different times who knew the same leader (personally) laying down their life for the same belief. ....

"Who knew the same leader (personally)?"
Your cited source names martyrs up to the present day- is this another example of 'Josh McDowell maths'?
In any case, DOC, it's still argumentum ad populum.

...And the apostles could have saved their lives if they just denied Christ and yet none did (after the Resurrection). And this is different from Heaven's Gate and Jonestown because Christ wasn't present to pressure or influence them, they could of just walked away after Christ died. Whereas the leaders of the those other 2 were present when the followers died and the followers deaths didn't happen at different times and in different locations. ...

And this still is an argumentum ad populum, DOC.
Faith or belief simply isn't evidence of anything.
Reported actions, even martydom, based on faith are proof of nothing more than the faith, if even that.

And the apostles were different from Muslim martyrs also and I'll say why when I get the time

As well as answering the queries for promised evidence, of course.
It would be a shame if DOC were tempted to hare off after Muslim martyrs rather than staying oon topic, wouldnt it.

 

[joobz]

We've already been over all this many times in this thread and the archaeology thread. Many scholars including Sir William M. Ramsay, Norman Geisler, and others show how there could have been a census during the time of Jesus.

Norman Geisler a scholar?? He's a scholar in the same way Pee Wee Herman is an Athlete.

And even Pax admits the friend of the Roman emperor Josephus could have got the date of the census wrong or even just made it up to make the scriptures and Christianity look incorrect (this obviously would have made his Roman Emperor friend happy). Some skeptics want to believe Josephus was right about a census but was wrong about Moses being in Egypt.

That's only half the problem with your argument:
Judea wasn't part of Rome when jesus was born. Having evidence of a census isn't equivilent to having evidence of a census IN Judea.

 

[joobz]

There is a difference between a lot of people just believing something is true and a lot of people in different areas and at different times who knew the same leader (personally) laying down their life for the same belief. And the apostles could have saved their lives if they just denied Christ and yet none did (after the Resurrection). And this is different from Heaven's Gate and Jonestown because Christ wasn't present to pressure or influence them, they could of just walked away after Christ died. Whereas the leaders of the those other 2 were present when the followers died and the followers deaths didn't happen at different times and in different locations.

And the apostles were different from Muslim martyrs also and I'll say why when I get the time.

The South was willing to go to war and die to protect their right to own slaves. Does that make slavery good, moral, or true?

I know the bible and Jesus say slavery's ok, but personally I think it is immoral and anyone who would advocate beating of slaves is also acting immorally.


Your martyr argument is utterly silly.

 

[RoboTimbo]

talk about slavery

Here's a thread dealing with that subject.

 

[Akhenaten]

As I said the attack the messenger mode is in full gear, but my 1000+ posts in this thread are out there and they have little if anything to do with me.

Say what? Who wrote them then? Josephus?

 

[Elizabeth I]

I think DOC will regret using the good father as a source, especially in light of DOC's tenacity in maintaining Luke's status as an historian.
I found this, written by father Murphy O'Conner, at the BAR website:

http://www.bib-arch.org/online-exclusives/nativity-03.asp

No, he just hand-waves away anything Fr. O'Connor says that doesn't agree with him.

I guess if joobz can talk about slavery a 100 times I can talk about this 25 times:

These people didn't think the claims were unsubstantiated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

And I guess someone can say for the 1,000th time, being willing to die for a belief doesn't mean that belief is true. All it means is that the believers believe very, very strongly.

And I too will be interested to see your tap-dancing about the Moslem martyrs.

Oh, and in response to your "their leaders were there forcing them" argument about Heaven's Gate and Jonestown, what about self-immolation by Buddhist monks? Nobody there forcing them to undergo a horrific, painful death, but they do it for their principles.

[If you use the number 100, you don't need to put "a" in front of it. See, the number 1 tells us that it's only a hundred. Would you say, "I'd like a 1 cup of coffee"?

One of my worst pet peeves in the world, right up there with the newspaper habit of writing "$1 million dollars".]

Indeed we have, however one of us seems to have a very short memory, and keeps putting forward "evidence" that has been comprehensively rebutted.

"Could have been" is not evidence. Even if there had been a census, do you have any evidence that people being counted were ever made to return to some ancestral village rather their home?

In fact, it has been pointed out that that would be a disorganized and confusing way to conduct a census, instead of just having everybody stay quietly where they were to be counted. And the Romans were nothing if not organized and systematic.

Norman Geisler a scholar?? He's a scholar in the same way Pee Wee Herman is an Athlete.

Or an actor.

 

[pakeha]

...No, he just hand-waves away anything Fr. O'Connor says that doesn't agree with him. ...

Of course you're right.
It's just that I enjoyed quoting the Biblical Archeology Review in this particular context.

Remember, DOC wrote on this very thread:

Many scholars including Sir William M. Ramsay, Norman Geisler, and others show how there could have been a census during the time of Jesus.

Obviously DOC isn't bluffing, so I'm looking forward to reading what these scholars have to say on the subject.

 

[joobz]

Obviously DOC isn't bluffing, so I'm looking forward to reading what these scholars have to say on the subject.

I think a stray "n't" flew in and landed itself in your sentence.

 

[dafydd]

Strawmen, and ad hom, and appeal to authority, oh my!

Nurse, he's out of bed again!

 

[babbits]

How do we know that's not the way it really went down...and the bible was "mis-translated" by some apologists further on down the line?

Yeah, paul was really disgusted by heterosexuality. Called it 'vomit'. So there you go.

 

[DOC]

Do you know what Ramsay said and how he reached his conclusion? His logic is that we know there were censuses and why would Luke lie? Hardly a convincing argument. However it is worth looking at his words again because there are topical to the thread.

"We know that Luke was right in the external facts, because the records have disclosed the whole system of the census ; but as to the inner facts, the birth and the divine nature of Jesus, there can (as said above) be no historical reasoning, for those are a matter of faith, of intuition, and of the individual human being's experience and inner life."


So yet again Ramsay makes his recurring point. There is no evidence the New Testament writers told the truth.

Regarding the part I bolded in the 1st sentence, Sir W. M. Ramsay found archaeological evidence that Quirinius could have indeed directed a census at the time of Christ's birth. I've already talked about this. And what is your source of Ramsay saying "why would Luke lie"?

And you should leave a reference for the Ramsay quote or at least a post # when the reference was given before especially if it was given many pages ago.

 

[six7s]

I very much doubt that ANY of your posts have EVER 'hit home'

However, almost each and every post you make does 'hit a nerve'; the nerve that twitches in response to unadulterated crap masquerading as evidence and/or valid argument

As I said the attack the messenger mode is in full gear, but my 1000+ posts in this thread are out there and they have little if anything to do with me.

True. They mostly have to do with your unsubstantiated claims.

Indeed

@DOC: I ain't attacking you, personally... rather its the nonsense that you post that I object to...

You have started and littered dozens and dozens of threads with - as Hokulele said - unsubstantiated claims.

I have a hunch that there is an exceedingly simple reason that explains why you persist with this annoying behaviour:

You have an irresistible urge to 'witness' on behalf of your mythical sky-daddy and you like to think believe that you have information and a perspective that is worth sharing​

There are many, many sites in teh interwebs where such conduct is not only appropriate but also actively encouraged.

Alas, this ain't one of them.

To consider claims that promote - as factual - anything that conflicts with what we know of reality:

• we do demand substance, validation and evidence that has been collated following critical analysis
• we do not accept wild, irrational conjecture based on the rants and delusions from fans/adherents of a patently contradictory tome

Get it?

Please, try much harder to think critically before posting any more inane waffle

TYIA

 

[paximperium]

Regarding the part I bolded in the 1st sentence, Sir W. M. Ramsay found archaeological evidence that Quirinius could have indeed directed a census at the time of Christ's birth.

And you know this how? Oh by reading someone's else's claim. Post a Primary source please.

I've already talked about this. And what is your source of Ramsay saying "why would Luke lie"?

A complete lack of reading comprehension is proven again.

And you should leave a reference for the Ramsay quote or at least a post # when the reference was given before especially if it was given many pages ago.

Hypocrite. Please produce a primary source all of your claims about Ramsay.

BTW: Notice the PRIMARY source part? Have you ever read anything by Ramsay? Ever?

 

[DOC]

Indeed we have, however one of us seems to have a very short memory, and keeps putting forward "evidence" that has been comprehensively rebutted.

And I say it hasn't been rebutted, so if people want to make up their own mind they will have to read the thread and not take my or your word for it.

"Could have been" is not evidence. Even if there had been a census, do you have any evidence that people being counted were ever made to return to some ancestral village rather their home?.

Sir W. M. Ramsay found evidence in his 15 years of research that Egyptians, who were part of the Roman Empire, had to return home for their census.

Again, your choice of words is peculiar. They don't want to believe. It's a matter of weighing the evidence; Josephus talking about something that happened within living memory of people around him is completely different, and more likely to be based on truth, than him retelling the thousand year old stories about Moses. If you can't see that, then it's not surprising you have difficulty with more difficult concepts.

And if you can't see that Josephus being close to the Roman emperor and even owing his life to that emperor must be considered when using a Josephus writing against Christianity, well then, you can't see that. But as stated, even if Josephus was correct, that doesn't mean Luke was wrong.

Luke wrote this in Chapter 3 vs. 1-3

Luke 3 (King James Version)

Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

____

I ask you does the writer of those verses sound like a man who makes stuff up?

 

[paximperium]

Sir W. M. Ramsay found evidence in his 15 years of research that Egyptians which were part of the Roman Empire had to return home for their census.

And you should leave a reference for the Ramsay quote or at least a post # when the reference was given before especially if it was given many pages ago.

Hypocrite.

 

[paximperium]

Sir William Ramsay found evidence that Bob the Celestial donkey kicked Jesus in the balls. Trust me, I read it somewhere.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I ask you does the writer of those verses sound like a man who makes stuff up?

Yes

 

[paximperium]

On September 11th, 2 terrorist filled airplanes flew into the World Trade Center. Afterwhich President Bush began a poorly planned war against terrorism. From the ashes of Iraq rose Super Fart Man who can fly with his fart. Super Fart Man met President Obama, the first Black President of the United States and kicked Kim Jong Ill in the balls. He went to New York city and got drunk with Bloomberg and then used his fart to kill all the rats in the city.

I ask you does the writer of those verses sound like a man who makes stuff up?

 

[Wally]

Sir William Ramsay found evidence that Bob the Celestial donkey kicked Jesus in the balls. Trust me, I read it somewhere.

You know, I vaguely remember seeing that in a documentary on the History Channel.