Sword_Of_Truth
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Magz (or Budly or 9-11 Investigator) with a metapedia "Jewish Ritual Murder" link in 3... 2... 1...
Who killed JonBenet Ramsey?
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Magz (or Budly or 9-11 Investigator) with a metapedia "Jewish Ritual Murder" link in 3... 2... 1...
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
There was also an episode of South Park that did the same thing. Normally, I'm a fan of South Park, and feel they do a good job of bringing skepticism to a wide audience (see: Biggest Douche in the Universe.) However, they had an episode where they lumped the Ramseys in with people like O.J. Simpson as murders who got away with it.
There are a couple of problems with that...
There were 2 possible sources for DNA...
- DNA was found under her fingernails. However, the sample from there was contaminated (I believe due to police incompetence.)
- DNA was also found on her underwear. However, they ran some tests on brand new underwear obtained from the same manufacturer, and found that many were contaminated during the manufacturing process.
http://m.rockymountainnews.com/news/2002/Nov/19/dna-may-not-help-ramsey-inquiry/
LONGTABBER PE
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This case has come up between myself and others many times over the years in discussions. It seems universally one of the most botched and 1 sided investigations of all times. ( Rivaling the Duke Rape case)
I have never sen a satisfactory answer to the published timelines.
If PR found the note and called 911 when she did ( around 5:30 ish)- why wasnt a room to room conducted then ( or even before she called- I would have accounted for my child if i found a note like that)
I'll never understand why the LE in the area didnt bring in the hounds. Thats SOP for every missing persons case everywhere I've ever been. ( might not have found a perp or trail but surely found the child)
My personal belief based on media evidence is that this was most likely a planned kidnapping gone bad by someone who knew or was aware of John and had an axe to grind with him.
That note I believe was pre thought out but altered during the writing.
I believe it was probably written before JB was abducted/killed. ( why would you write a ransom note for a dead vic after the fact ESPECIALLY if you left the body there to be found?)
Also, if you accept the time of death published ( shortly after she was last known to be alive around 10PM) versus the time the note was allegedly found- this implies someone she knew.
The questions I have never seen addressed was where was JB from 10 on?
Where was the family? Was she in bed? How did the perp get access and where was she physically abducted from? How did she get downstairs?
Lot of things never added up. I still havent ruled out someone on thew inside having knowledge of the killing.
This investigation was botched from the beginning- I'm afraid the perp will never be caught.
I have never sen a satisfactory answer to the published timelines.
If PR found the note and called 911 when she did ( around 5:30 ish)- why wasnt a room to room conducted then ( or even before she called- I would have accounted for my child if i found a note like that)
I'll never understand why the LE in the area didnt bring in the hounds. Thats SOP for every missing persons case everywhere I've ever been. ( might not have found a perp or trail but surely found the child)
My personal belief based on media evidence is that this was most likely a planned kidnapping gone bad by someone who knew or was aware of John and had an axe to grind with him.
That note I believe was pre thought out but altered during the writing.
I believe it was probably written before JB was abducted/killed. ( why would you write a ransom note for a dead vic after the fact ESPECIALLY if you left the body there to be found?)
Also, if you accept the time of death published ( shortly after she was last known to be alive around 10PM) versus the time the note was allegedly found- this implies someone she knew.
The questions I have never seen addressed was where was JB from 10 on?
Where was the family? Was she in bed? How did the perp get access and where was she physically abducted from? How did she get downstairs?
Lot of things never added up. I still havent ruled out someone on thew inside having knowledge of the killing.
This investigation was botched from the beginning- I'm afraid the perp will never be caught.
joobie
i don't care
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me too - and i agree with you that there's plenty of others to have sympathy for. i'm glad that i am one of those people that has the capability to have sympathy for a whole lot of them at the same time.
the unsolved child murder that really, really gets to me though, maybe because he was from my hometown, is the boy in the box.
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sophia8
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From what I've read, participating in beauty contests was a profession for three generations of the Ramsays - her mother had been a child pageant queen and her grandmother had been a beauty queen. So JB was following in the family business.
However unsuitable it seems to us, that was her tribe's culture.
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
I can't really blame the Ramsey's for not doing a full house search. After all, most people would expect a ransom note to be rather definitive proof that a kidnapping had taken place. Not like the Ramseys would have had enough crime experience to think "There is a Ransom note, but it COULD be a ruse...".
Now, the police are a different matter. THEY should have done a complete search of the house. (Even if they weren't expecting to find a body, they should have at least been searching for any evidence an intruder might have left behind.)
Perhaps, but if it were a planned kidnapping, then why would the killers molest/violate the body on site? (She had died from strangulation, not something that you'd expect from a kidnapping gone bad.)
Why do you say that?
This doesn't necessarily mean that JonBenet didn't know her killer, just wondering how the timeline matters... (After all, even a complete stranger could have broken in and waited for the family to go to sleep.)
The perp likely got access through a basement window. (There was debris in one of the rooms, and scuff marks on the wall near the window. Also, a suitcase had been moved to provide a step to get out.) There is also a slight chance that the killer may have had a key (the Ramseys had been doing a lot of renovations, and had a lot of cleaners/etc. with access to their house, but that's less likely than the window-access theory.)
She was likey either abuducted from her bed (They had put her to bed earlier), or she may have wandered downstairs. (There was undigested pineapple in her stomach, so its possible that she knew her killer and he offered her food.) There were also burn marks that might have come from a stun gun. So, her killer may have either stunned her in her room (if he were a complete stranger), or brought her to the kitchen, and THEN stunned her to bring her to the basement.
The family was upstairs at the time. Apparently, their home was quite large, and whatever happened in the basement would probably not be heard by anyone in the upper floors.
LONGTABBER PE
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I'm just looking at this thru my experience and some things dont "fit"
>>>I can't really blame the Ramsey's for not doing a full house search. After all, most people would expect a ransom note to be rather definitive proof that a kidnapping had taken place. Not like the Ramseys would have had enough crime experience to think "There is a Ransom note, but it COULD be a ruse...".
I've never investigated a kidnapping but I've seen my share of parents with missing children. My mind cannot fathom a mother who just found a RANSOM note in strange hand INSIDE her house and NOT run immediately ( imagine the Enterprise entering warp) to put her hands on her child and not finding her/him, screaming their name frantically ( while screaming bloody murder) and searching every squre inch of the house then outside.
>>>Now, the police are a different matter. THEY should have done a complete search of the house. (Even if they weren't expecting to find a body, they should have at least been searching for any evidence an intruder might have left behind.)
No argument and i have never seen that explained to my satisfaction. Maybe they dont have them there but where were the bloodhounds? I know some neighboring county has them.
>>>Perhaps, but if it were a planned kidnapping, then why would the killers molest/violate the body on site? (She had died from strangulation, not something that you'd expect from a kidnapping gone bad.)
This is where I'm speculating based on not seeing the actual reports.
We dont know ( at least I've never seen) what cells or tissue this DNA was in. ( that makes a difference). We also dont know for certain she was molested. ( when you remove the media spin and remarks, the only documents i saw at CTV said it was inconclusive- not saying my memory is correct or something hasnt been released since but I dont remember it)
Strangulation isnt unheard of in abductions ( the garrott) because it keeps you "quiet" and they cant bite you like a hand over the mouth. Problem is- it can be quickly fatal too.
Thats why I wonder if the killing wasnt an "accident" and the body was made to look like it was molested as a cover.
I've also never heard of a kidnapper making a ransom note when he intended to kill the person and leave the body at the scene. ( kinda defeats the purpose doesnt it?)
>>>Why do you say that?
Easy, at night ( especially for small children and many females)- they tend to scream or otherwise make a ruckus when startled by a stranger especially with parents in the house.
>>>This doesn't necessarily mean that JonBenet didn't know her killer, just wondering how the timeline matters... (After all, even a complete stranger could have broken in and waited for the family to go to sleep.)
Heres more. It takes a brazen individual to enter a house at night with multiple occupants not knowing who was where. Or it takes someone who has an idea. An unknown perp wouldnt know if they had a dog, gun liked midnite snacks or whatever. The other thing is that between 10-12 the parents and brother are likely awake or in light sleep.
>>>The perp likely got access through a basement window. (There was debris in one of the rooms, and scuff marks on the wall near the window. Also, a suitcase had been moved to provide a step to get out.) There is also a slight chance that the killer may have had a key (the Ramseys had been doing a lot of renovations, and had a lot of cleaners/etc. with access to their house, but that's less likely than the window-access theory.)
I think it more likely because I've crawled in and out of those windows before. The ground, the dirt, moisture from melted snow etc would have been disturbed, prints all over the place ( ingress and egress) and should be on the body as a result. An average sized male would have to do a lot of wiggling and jiggling leaving all kinds of forensic evidence. ( maybe he did and the morons in the PD didnt find it)
>>>She was likey either abuducted from her bed (They had put her to bed earlier), or she may have wandered downstairs. (There was undigested pineapple in her stomach, so its possible that she knew her killer and he offered her food.) There were also burn marks that might have come from a stun gun. So, her killer may have either stunned her in her room (if he were a complete stranger), or brought her to the kitchen, and THEN stunned her to bring her to the basement.
you can forget the stun gun- that didnt happen. Thats a lot of movement and potential exposure toting a presumed struggling child. Plus why would he take her to the basement ( with intent to kidnap) because you sure as hell cant take 2 people thru that window at the same time or pull a struggling one thru.
Just educated guessing but everything I see leads me to believe it was a kidnapping gone bad by someone with knowledge of the family and that she was probably killed en route to outside and put in the basement deliberately and it made to look like molestation was the motive.
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
You are right in that there was no evidence of actual 'sexual' molestation (although some sort of act might have occured). I used the term 'molestation/violation' to indicate something that would have been outside the range of activites you would expect from an 'accidental' death.
JonBenet was 6 years old; I don't think that the use of a garrott would have been necessary to carry out a kidnapping.
They may have been brazen, or just not very smart at handling risks.
Actually, there would likely be no melted snow, because there was no snowcover on the ground outside their house.
As for forensics, there actually WAS debris left behind. I'm pretty sure the cops did find it, but for whatever reason they ignored it in thier crusade to blame the parents.
Ummm... why are you suggesting the stun gun didn't happen? In fact it woudl have been an ideal weapon to stop the movement and struggling of a child.
(Note: There is no guarantee that a stun gun was used. However, given the size and layout of the Ramsey house, its possible that the child was lured downstairs, and then forcefully taken from the kitchen; the Ramsey house was quite soundproof (thick carpets, lots of distance from the kitchen and basement to the parent's bedroom, etc.).
Its also possible that he never intended to kidnap her, that the letter was a ruse right from the start. Or its also possible that the individual was unsure of what they were doing and changed plans in mid-stream (originally thinking of a kidnapping, but once abducting the child decided that immidiate gratification through murder was preferable.)
ARubberChickenWithAPulley
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I could easily imagine a mother not doing that any of that. As far as I know, Patsy Ramsey found the note, checked to see if JonBenet was missing, and called 9-11. All very reasonable things to do. You seem to have the image in your mind of a 1950's-film stereotypical woman who freaks out when faced with adversity.
There is no "right" way for victims to react to crimes, and a lot of people react very different. The Ramseys also received a lot of bad press because they were apparently not emotional enough in public. Different people react differently to difficult situations.
Olowkow
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Question 1: What is the point or reason behind the note?
Question 2: What is the significance of the garrote as an instrument of murder (paint brush)?
Question 3: Why hide the body in the basement?
It is very difficult to believe that either parent did it, particularly in light of all the real experts' opinions, and their own body language, but I really think that mom did it, and did not really have a good memory of having done it. Dad knows, but cannot handle it.
Nothing else makes sense to me.
And yes, it really matters who did it.
Question 2: What is the significance of the garrote as an instrument of murder (paint brush)?
Question 3: Why hide the body in the basement?
It is very difficult to believe that either parent did it, particularly in light of all the real experts' opinions, and their own body language, but I really think that mom did it, and did not really have a good memory of having done it. Dad knows, but cannot handle it.
Nothing else makes sense to me.
And yes, it really matters who did it.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
The National Enquirer. They had the most to gain.
LONGTABBER PE
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>>>You are right in that there was no evidence of actual 'sexual' molestation (although some sort of act might have occured). I used the term 'molestation/violation' to indicate something that would have been outside the range of activites you would expect from an 'accidental' death.
I say that because I have writen those reports and know the difference between what they "say" and what they "mean" and how they are "spinned".
When theres strong evidence ( tearing, fluids, DNA and such) you will see the words like "sexual trauma"- when you see weak phrases like evidence of sexual "molestation"- that tells you they found things that can have any number of causes and they dont know.
>>>JonBenet was 6 years old; I don't think that the use of a garrott would have been necessary to carry out a kidnapping.
kidnapping no- to keep her silent and restrict movement and resistance- yes.
Unless you believe she willingly accompanied the perp and remained silent as a mouse from her alleged bedroom thru the house and during the event of her death- something kept her silent and kept her from kicking, knocking things over and such.
>>>They may have been brazen, or just not very smart at handling risks.
Highly unlikely. Kidnapping and abduction just by their nature are crimes where there is contact, proximity, some form of control and lots of risks of exposure. Also, its not something one intends to do in a strange house where multiple are present unless one has a reasonable belief he can remain undetected during the egress with a victim in tow.
Also, large or not- people are still 30-40 feet away. One of them may have a weapon.
Thats an awful lot of "luck" for a random actor to have.
>>>Actually, there would likely be no melted snow, because there was no snowcover on the ground outside their house.
Yep but the ground would be wet and soft, the grass would be dead and get on the clothing and the clothes would be wet as well from laying down to enter from a ground level window.
There should be footprints inside (wet) as well as massive evidence of entry/exit at the ground right before the window. Some of this contamination should be on the body and throughout the house as well.
>>>As for forensics, there actually WAS debris left behind. I'm pretty sure the cops did find it, but for whatever reason they ignored it in thier crusade to blame the parents.
Thats open to speculation ( the details from the media are largely unclear as to what they found and where they found it) but I'm forced to agree that this was a totally botched investigation so maybe everything was there and as you say ignored.
As to their crusade against the parents- if the media accounts are factually accurate in the details and timeline ( thats a BIG "if")- I can see why they zeroed in on the parents or brother.
>>>Ummm... why are you suggesting the stun gun didn't happen? In fact it woudl have been an ideal weapon to stop the movement and struggling of a child.
(Note: There is no guarantee that a stun gun was used. However, given the size and layout of the Ramsey house, its possible that the child was lured downstairs, and then forcefully taken from the kitchen; the Ramsey house was quite soundproof (thick carpets, lots of distance from the kitchen and basement to the parent's bedroom, etc.).
Nah, thats hollywood. I have used them and been a volunteer to be crash test dummy for one in training. ( i had to experience for myself what it would and wouldnt do for me to feel comfortable with its capability)
First of all- the SG leaves the telltale "snakebite" wound where the prongs pierce the skin. They dont arc enough to burn and they are rarely used by a perp because they have a range of about 10 ft and only give you 1 chance.
There is no such thing as a soundproof house. Especially when someone is making a physical ruckus.
>>>Its also possible that he never intended to kidnap her, that the letter was a ruse right from the start. Or its also possible that the individual was unsure of what they were doing and changed plans in mid-stream (originally thinking of a kidnapping, but once abducting the child decided that immidiate gratification through murder was preferable
That would qualify him for the "dumbest crook" or maybe even a Darwin award if true.
The perp took a lot of risks to be a random act so that indicates premeditation. The fact she was abducted indicates she was the primary target. I cant accept the change mind in the middle of the crime mentality.
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
I shot the sheriff
But I didn't kill JonBenet Ramsey, oh no! oh!
But I didn't kill JonBenet Ramsey, oh no! oh!
LONGTABBER PE
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Thats all well and good and whatever. I have in my "mind" actual FIELD EXPERIENCE with missing children reports. I've never seen one that wasnt climbing the wall.
Also ( if one accepts the timeline) lets say the immediate reaction was "shock" and she didnt.
The call allegedly went in around 5:30 and the body was discovered at approximately ONE PM. Thats SEVEN and ONE HALF HOURS.
Now you want me to believe that a family with a ransom note AND a missing daughter ( she was already dead thus she wasnt there for breakfast, play with the Christmas toys or even got out of bed) didnt prompt a MOTHER, FATHER and BROTHER to at least "wonder" where JB is and not at least go to her bedroom and see she wasnt there then look thru the house? ( not to mention the law enforcement first responders but thats another story because maybe there was a zillion to 1 chance the entire family was in shock or silly- there is no excuse for trained LEO's not to have)
That conduct is beyond all reason.
I'm not a fan of the whole "how they should have reacted" stuff because it seems like sometimes it is given too much weight while other times I find the reaction well within reason, but I certainly appreciate that it's a factor that should be considered. That aside, I would be wondering how the person got into my house and then got my daughter out of the house. I'd be looking at every possible entrance/exit. I'd also be looking for signs that she may have been injured.
Then again, the police arrived within 7 minutes. I can certainly see them being in shock for that long and waiting on the police. Do we know for a fact that the Ramseys didn't run around the house checking windows and exit doors during that time? JB was found in a room in the basement. If there was no window in that room, would they automatically check it anyway? Maybe, but if your focus is on "how did they get in and out?" I can see skipping areas that don't lead outside.
Once the police arrived, I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to defer to their expertise, however misplaced it turned out to be. If the police mindset was, "She's missing and we're waiting to hear from kidnappers" would parents counter with, "Hey, lets go check every nook and cranny of the house to see if we can find her corpse!"
LONGTABBER PE
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whats up yimmy
>>>Then again, the police arrived within 7 minutes. I can certainly see them being in shock for that long and waiting on the police.
I can see that both ways but 7 MINUTES isnt unreasonable
>>>Do we know for a fact that the Ramseys didn't run around the house checking windows and exit doors during that time?
I've never seen or heard of their immediate actions but one has to believe ( in theory) they would search the basement too if they did
>>>If there was no window in that room, would they automatically check it anyway? Maybe, but if your focus is on "how did they get in and out?" I can see skipping areas that don't lead outside.
There is a window into the basement ( saw it on TV way back) but regardless- one would check every room, closet, hamper of whatever. ( could be a child joking or playing a trick)
>>>Once the police arrived, I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to defer to their expertise, however misplaced it turned out to be. If the police mindset was, "She's missing and we're waiting to hear from kidnappers" would parents counter with, "Hey, lets go check every nook and cranny of the house to see if we can find her corpse
That was my initial point. People can banter 'woulda/shoulda/coulda" all day about the parents. Maybe they did or didnt or whatever.
I simply cannot fathom a police department not conducting an immediate house AND grounds search and if nothing turns up- bring on the dogs and the site team. Thats department SOP everywhere i have ever heard of.
I remember when i first heard the timeline- I actually thought the reporter misspoke. Even then, I think the father found her- what were these keystone kops doing for all that time?
What makes you believe that the Boulder police had dogs trained to search for missing persons?
LONGTABBER PE
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At the time of the incident, they in fact did not ( they do now) but thats not the point.
Many departments dont have their own K9 units indigenous but there are always a department close by that does and the state does. Its common practice to borrow them and doesnt take long to get them there.
let`s talk
Scholar
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... and the window was too small for an adult.
After reading a lot of stuff about this case I think that there was somebody else in the story, Mr./Ms.Unknown.
At the same time I think her parents did not tell us the whole truth. There was/is something that they were/are hiding.
And... we will probably never find out who did it. Sad.
www dot trutv dot com/library/cime/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html
www dot crimeshots dot com/JonBenetCase.html
jonbenetramsey dot pbworks dot com