Archeologly proves the Bible?

[pakeha]

hi, GreNME

You definitely should if you're interested in archaeology.

Have you been there?
Recently?

 

[amb]

''Evidence that Requires a Verdict'' is a true fundamentalist manifesto.
It is sold here in theist bookshops such as ''Word'' ''Kurong'' and some larger general bookstores such as Dymocks rarely. It is required reading by religious kooks of the far right.

 

[eccles]

The Cradle of Civilization -- Noah' s Flood

I am combining parts of two articles from the Heritage Key Archaeological Site

The Cradle of Civilization

Attempting to pin down a definition of the world 'civilization' is no easy task. As it turns out, annoyingly, there are quite a few opinions on the issue. Some even argue the very definition of the word has to be intrinsically shifted as ‘civilization’ moves along, for example from writing to government (though surely those words in themselves suffice?). Still, there seem to be some running themes throughout this infinite mish-mash of musings, whereby a civilization comprises:

1. The gathering of people in populated areas, as opposed to sporadically-placed in wilderness regions.
2. The advancement of societies through record-keeping, like writing.
3. The development of social and political institutions.

In this sense, there’s more to ‘civilization’ than a few hairy men lighting fires around a cave. Indeed, civilization under these terms hadn’t even emerged by the time small bands of humans downed their spears and knives, and began cultivating permanent spots of land for agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution. Animals were also kept for domestic purposes (although there's no mention of stupid Labradoodles with tartan jackets). This monumental paradigm came around 10,000 BC. But it would not be until around 5,000 years later that the Middle East would see the first city-states emerging, with significant populations.

Development of Cuneiform:

To understand cuneiform, you must first delve into its birthplace. Fourth millennium BC Mesopotamia was a land full of opportunity, where the smallest tribe could lay claim to an entire continent. By that time the city-states of Sumer had begun to stamp their authority on the region, pioneering skills such as irrigation and social structuring. The sodden reaches stemming from the Persian Gulf were perfect at times for the growing of foods like barley, onions, grapes and apples.

However, the gulf’s two main tributaries – the Tigris and the Euphrates – were capable of destruction on a biblical scale, literally: many now believe the flooding of the two giants to be the basis for the Noah story. Whole villages, towns and cultures could be wiped out in a matter of days, not to mention the devastating loss in yields of crops. Thus the area needed ways of dealing with these two capricious life-givers, and rigid social structuring allowed local leaders to control Mesopotamian flood prevention and containment. Arguably the earliest such structuring, this is one reason Mesopotamia, and Sumer in particular, is known as the ‘Cradle of Civilization’.


See there in the hilite the origin of the Noah's Flood Story. I suppose that is where the Epic of Gilgamesh got it's Flood Story, the the Babylonians used it, then the Hebrews copied it into the Torah. Of course Noah was a fictional character as was YHWH.





Robert

 

[pakeha]

Josh McDowell's books receive a roasting here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/


As I read the articles there I came across the story of Glenn R Morton. A fascinating story and an interesting man indeed.
He ghostwrote the evolution section of mr McDowell's "Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity', became convinced the YEC was completely refuted by observed geology and has written a number of extremely interesting articles on the subject.
This link will take you to one:
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/poop.htm


Scroll down past the index to read the article.

But while I enjoy reading this article and the others at mr Morton's site, geology isn't my field and I have no way to either affirm or rebutt his arguments.

As far as I'm concerned mr McDowell destroyed himself as a credible source for anything with that wierdly dishonest figure for the number of 'manuscripts' of the NT.
After all, if someone lies openly about their basic source material, what possible importance can the conclusions have to me or anyone else?

 

[amb]

It is true that many ancient peoples had a flood legend. The above post could possibly be the source or birth if you prefer of this tale. As usual the Hebrews would place a hero of their own into the story.

 

[eccles]

Josh McDowell's books receive a roasting here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/


As I read the articles there I came across the story of Glenn R Morton. A fascinating story and an interesting man indeed.
He ghostwrote the evolution section of mr McDowell's "Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity', became convinced the YEC was completely refuted by observed geology and has written a number of extremely interesting articles on the subject.
This link will take you to one:
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/poop.htm


Scroll down past the index to read the article.

But while I enjoy reading this article and the others at mr Morton's site, geology isn't my field and I have no way to either affirm or rebutt his arguments.

As far as I'm concerned mr McDowell destroyed himself as a credible source for anything with that wierdly dishonest figure for the number of 'manuscripts' of the NT.
After all, if someone lies openly about their basic source material, what possible importance can the conclusions have to me or anyone else?

Yes, he sure copped it. None of his books will ever darken my front door as will another bible.

I wish someone would do the same to the bible.





Robert

 

[Simon39759]

The Cradle of Civilization

Attempting to pin down a definition of the world 'civilization' is no easy task. As it turns out, annoyingly, there are quite a few opinions on the issue. Some even argue the very definition of the word has to be intrinsically shifted as ‘civilization’ moves along, for example from writing to government (though surely those words in themselves suffice?). Still, there seem to be some running themes throughout this infinite mish-mash of musings, whereby a civilization comprises:
1. The gathering of people in populated areas, as opposed to sporadically-placed in wilderness regions.
2. The advancement of societies through record-keeping, like writing.
3. The development of social and political institutions.
In this sense, there’s more to ‘civilization’ than a few hairy men lighting fires around a cave. Indeed, civilization under these terms hadn’t even emerged by the time small bands of humans downed their spears and knives, and began cultivating permanent spots of land for agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution. Animals were also kept for domestic purposes (although there's no mention of stupid Labradoodles with tartan jackets). This monumental paradigm came around 10,000 BC. But it would not be until around 5,000 years later that the Middle East would see the first city-states emerging, with significant populations.

Criterium one and three are pretty vague, as any human group would fulfil these conditions to some extent.
And, number 2 is either equally vague (does the oral transmission of stories counts? Viking and Celts relied on it) or probably too severe (Does it have to be just writing? Then Mayan and Incan did not qualify...)

It is true that many ancient peoples had a flood legend. The above post could possibly be the source or birth if you prefer of this tale. As usual the Hebrews would place a hero of their own into the story.

Well, floods are not particularly rare.
Floods themselves, hurricanes, heavy-rain, mudslides, Tsunami, even the erosion of the coastal area or the rise of water levels as climate change would be enough to generate stories of flood, or ruins that would logically be interpreted as evidence of past floods.
Considering that most human civilizations (whatever that means) happened on coastal areas, it is not surprising that flood stories are so common.

 

[GreNME]

hi, GreNME


Have you been there?
Recently?

Nope. It's been on my list for years. My plans are seriously under-funded, however. Also, my plans include someday also being able to get into Iraq for a look at their archaeological sites before war and natural erosion completely destroy any chance to see them.

 

[supercorgi]

STOP THIS STUPID BIBLE THUMPING AND PREACHING
You are becoming a real pain in the butt.

Becoming? She has been for many years now.

 

[supercorgi]

Criterium one and three are pretty vague, as any human group would fulfil these conditions to some extent.
And, number 2 is either equally vague (does the oral transmission of stories counts? Viking and Celts relied on it) or probably too severe (Does it have to be just writing? Then Mayan and Incan did not qualify...)

Just to clarify. The Mayan did have an extensive written language which has been decoded. (Damn you Spanish priests for burning so many of the Mayan codices! I weep when I think of all the information that was lost.) The Inca did not have a written language but they did have an ingenious method of keeping track of numbers and accounting called Quipu - based on a series of colored and knotted strings.

 

[Simon39759]

Ok; my bad for the Mayan. I am duly mortified.

 

[amb]

No doubt about it. The christian religion has done more harm in the search for authentic historical causes than even the muslims. They burned books by the thousands if they contained a sliver of writings that contradicted the babble.

 

[Belz...]

Not yet as I have already specified I am by no means an expert in this field of study, but I do read and study as I find more time to do so.

So you are offering as evidence something you haven't read ? How surprising.

 

[zooterkin]

So you are offering as evidence something you haven't read ? How surprising.

It would be consistent. DOC is always referring to the bible...

 

[Dancing David]

Civilization:
-storage technology
-agriculture
-division of labor
-economy

 

[shadron]

No doubt about it. The christian religion has done more harm in the search for authentic historical causes than even the muslims. They burned books by the thousands if they contained a sliver of writings that contradicted the babble.

One of the examples that always irked me was that Sir Richard Francis Burton^WP, an English explorer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, ethnologist, linguist, poet, hypnotist, fencer and diplomat in the 19th century. He steeped himself in the middle east and African culture and languages; he is reputed to have been fluent in 29 different tongues. He spent a piece of his life living as an Arab, even visiting Mecca (which is forbidden to non-Muslims). He located the source of the Nile's famous floods, discovered Lake Tanganyika and did a lot of other exploration work with John Hanning Speke, David Livingston and Henry Morton Stanley.

He is best known today for his translations of Arabic classic works. If you have read Arabian Nights you most likely read his abridged translation. Here is what wiki says:

Burton had long had an interest in sexuality and erotic literature. However, the Obscene Publications Act of 1857 had resulted in many jail sentences for publishers, with prosecutions being brought by the Society for the Suppression of Vice. Burton referred to the society and those who shared its views as Mrs Grundy. A way around this was the private circulation of books amongst the members of a society. For this reason Burton, together with Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot, created the Kama Shastra Society to print and circulate books that would be illegal to publish in public.

One of the most celebrated of all his books is his translation of the The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night (more commonly known in English as The Arabian Nights because of Andrew Lang's abridged collection) in ten volumes, (1885) with six further volumes being added later. The volumes were printed by the Kama Shashtra Society in a subscribers-only edition of one thousand with a guarantee that there would never be a larger printing of the books in this form. The stories collected were often sexual in content and were considered pornography at the time of publication. In particular, the Terminal Essay of the Nights was one of the first English language texts to dare address the practice of pederasty which he postulated was prevalent in an area of the southern latitudes named by him the "Sotadic zone." Rumors about Burton's own sexuality were already circulating and were further incited by this work.

Perhaps Burton's best-known book is his translation of The Kama Sutra. In fact, it is untrue that he was the translator since the original manuscript was in ancient Sanskrit which he could not read. However, he collaborated with Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot on the work and provided translations from other manuscripts of later translations. The Kama Shashtra Society first printed the book in 1883 and numerous editions of the Burton translation are in print to this day.

Unfortunately, victorian morals and religion had the last laugh on Burton. His wife Isabel Burton^WP was a Christian:

His English translation from a French edition of the Arabic erotic guide The Perfumed Garden was printed as The Perfumed Garden of the Cheikh Nefzaoui: A Manual of Arabian Erotology (1886). After Burton's death, Isabel burnt many of his papers, including a manuscript of a subsequent translation, The Scented Garden, containing the final chapter of the work, on pederasty. Burton all along intended for this translation to be published after his death, to provide an income for his widow,[24] and also, as a final gesture of defiance against Victorian society.

In an appendix to her unfinished autobiography[1], her posthumous collaborator points out that she had a first offer of 6,000 pounds for the manuscript, a considerable fortune in those times, and moreover that she need never have disclosed her actions at all, or blamed them on her husband. He further claims that she acted from a sincere belief that "out of a thousand men who read the work, 15 would read it in the scientific spirit in which it was written, and the other 985 solely for filth's sake", and feared that publication would blight, not her husband's worldly reputation - for his interest in the subject was notorious - but, by tempting others to sin, his prospects in the world to come.

 

[dropzone]

I made it through a few hundred posts to see if I was duplicating anything, but gave up.

which egyptian myths are in the bible ?
list please

Well, maybe one prayer. Always thought Psalm 104 sounded like an Egyptian prayer, and it appears I'm not alone.

The Hymn has a remarkable similarity to Psalm 104, with which it is frequently compared, although there is currently no established link between them.

Not surprising. Israel is a walk of a few weeks (not 40 years) from Egypt and there was undoubtedly trade in both goods and culture, especially from Egypt out. Then there's the part where Egypt actually owned Israel.

 

[Akhenaten]

<snippy>

Well, maybe one prayer. Always thought Psalm 104 sounded like an Egyptian prayer, and it appears I'm not alone.

<snippy more>

Not alone, but not without dissenters either. Not xtian hymn. Can't have.


As it is written, so let it be done,

Re-Horakty Nepherkheperure Waenre Akhenaten

 

[dropzone]

You're just p***ed the Jews stole from a hymn you wrote.


ETA: Anyway, I noticed by its flavor, not as a direct steal.

 

[eccles]

I made it through a few hundred posts to see if I was duplicating anything, but gave up.

Well, maybe one prayer. Always thought Psalm 104 sounded like an Egyptian prayer, and it appears I'm not alone. Not surprising. Israel is a walk of a few weeks (not 40 years) from Egypt and there was undoubtedly trade in both goods and culture, especially from Egypt out. Then there's the part where Egypt actually owned Israel.

Quite right. This is what I have been saying for awhile now. Egypt ruled Canaan:

This article is based on the idea, expressed in Israel Finkelstein's & N.A. Silverman's book "The Bible Unearthed," that the Israelites were never slaves in Egypt, that they were inhabitants of the Land of Canaan since the earliest times of their history. The Land of Canaan (as the Land of Israel is today) was always affected by changes of climate depending on the amount of rains that fell there in winter. It could be fertile and lush with growth, both wild and cultivated, or it could go through periods of severe drought. In such periods, it was a common practice for its inhabitants to go "down" to Egypt, where the river Nile flowed continually, and there was enough produce to be saved for harder times. They never stayed for long, going back to their own land as soon as they were able to. In some periods of that ancient history, the Land of Canaan was also under Egyptian rule; Egyptian culture, then, was never far from the reach of the inhabitants of Canaan, without their need to be enslaved in that country.


The land of Canaan stretched on a narrow strip of land along part of the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea bordering in the east by river Jordan. It reached in the north to the environments of the modern river Litani to include the best known Canaanite (later called Phoenician) towns of Tyre and Sidon; in the south it was bordered by the Negev desert and the Sinai Peninsula, mostly under the rule of Egypt. The Canaanites are assumed to have been the inhabitants of the Land of Canaan, but it is difficult to say which name came first, that of the people or that of the land.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1949042/canaanites_israelites_jews_and_israelis.html?cat=37




]

Robert