RobRoy
Not A Mormon
I like the idea of being one of the signs of the Apocralypse.
Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.
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I like the idea of being one of the signs of the Apocralypse.
BobTheDonkey
Illuminator
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Now, if we were discussing oiled-up, bulging HETEROerotic muscles, they'd be set. But since homosexuality is not allowed by dogma, it follows that oiled-up, bulging homoerotic muscles are not allowed in the church.
I hear that enough prayer can cure that and turn homoerotic muscles into heteroerotic muscles. So, ya know, they've got that going for them.
RobRoy
Not A Mormon
Pah, you and your dogma. That's just what they want us to think!
Here are two examples of evidence:
A man is telling me about the wonderful bed and mattress I can get. I will sleep as I have never slept before. Magic electrically-operated fingers inside the mattress will massage away my aches and pains. Similarly a heating pad will assure that I never get chills again. The cost is $5,500. As it happens, fortunately for me, this man can arrange for me to get one of these wonders.
I say, "But ... but ... how do I know it will work as claimed? Not all products do."
"Ah, " he replies. "I just happen to have the proof with me." And he whips out a sheaf of photocopied letters from deliriously happy users from all over the country.
--------------
The End
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This kind of evidence is called, not only hearsay, but testimonial.
And it's notoriously unreliable.
At the Miracle of Fatima, Portugal, 1917, newspapers interviewed those who had gone there, having heard that three children had been told by the Virgin Mary in a vision to tell the people to come on that day, October 17th, and they would see a miracle.
Newspapers reported that many people gave testimony that they had seen one or more of the following phenomena:
- the sun was an oval, spinning disk in the sky
- it cast bright lights around the landscape
- it was less bright than usual
- it careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, and strongly radiated heat
- it was at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple
- its movement was exceedingly fast and whirling
- at times it appeared to be loosened from the sky
- it trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws
- it was silver, enveloped in gauzy grey light
- it whirled and turned in the circle of broken clouds
- the light turned blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral
- the light spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands
- and clothes previously wet with rain were suddenly and completely dry.
The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.
Not all people saw phenomena, though. In fact, many Roman Catholic believers said they saw nothing out of the ordinary.
Yet as a skeptic I don't believe any of these wonders happened. Because they was not reported anywhere else in the world. And there's only one sun.
Were the people who gave this anecdotal testimony lying?
No evidence they were lying.
They saw wonders. Skeptics didn't. Because nowhere else in the world did anyone report seeing anything unusual about the sun's behavior that day.
So the skeptics who didn't see wonders were not convinced by the impassioned testimonials given by the believers.
-----------------
So when we ask for historical evidence, we don't mean that we will be satisfied with two of the apostles agreeing with each other that there were miracles.
That would be like 'proving' Stalin was a wonderful leader by citing testimony given by fellow members of his party, such as "He had found Russia working with wooden ploughs and leaving it equipped with atomic piles," and foreign dignitaries such as U.S. Ambassador to Russia (1937-1938) Joseph E. Davies' testimonial that Stalin was "kindly and wise" .
----------------
Then there's this kind of historical evidence:
This too deals with oral history. (Remember many of the Christian testaments were oral history for many years.)
Robbie's family had a tradition, passed on from parents to children for over 200 years, that they were related to the "Royal" Stuarts (Sewarts), kings of Scotland and England for centuries.
Many of their friends and neighbors didn't believe them, even laughed at their pretentiousness.
But they had the last laugh. They carefully documented their lineage, supporting it with passenger lists, baptismal and marriage records, and other external and independent evidence, and showed that their ancestor Hamish Stuart was in fact the bastard son of King James VII's grandson.
------------
Now I know that since Jesus was born into an obscure family, there would be no records still existing to prove his birth. But comfort yourself with this fact: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
And, more importantly - don't pretend that when two apostles give a consistent story, this is proof that their statements are accurate and precise. The consistency may be thanks more to the cleanup operation of 325 c.e., after the Council of Nicea, which was convened mainly by Constantine the Great to do away with contradictions and all sorts of variations on tales and legends of Christian mythology.
In fact, that Council marked the true beginning of Christianity.
A man is telling me about the wonderful bed and mattress I can get. I will sleep as I have never slept before. Magic electrically-operated fingers inside the mattress will massage away my aches and pains. Similarly a heating pad will assure that I never get chills again. The cost is $5,500. As it happens, fortunately for me, this man can arrange for me to get one of these wonders.
I say, "But ... but ... how do I know it will work as claimed? Not all products do."
"Ah, " he replies. "I just happen to have the proof with me." And he whips out a sheaf of photocopied letters from deliriously happy users from all over the country.
--------------
The End
-----------
This kind of evidence is called, not only hearsay, but testimonial.
And it's notoriously unreliable.
At the Miracle of Fatima, Portugal, 1917, newspapers interviewed those who had gone there, having heard that three children had been told by the Virgin Mary in a vision to tell the people to come on that day, October 17th, and they would see a miracle.
Newspapers reported that many people gave testimony that they had seen one or more of the following phenomena:
- the sun was an oval, spinning disk in the sky
- it cast bright lights around the landscape
- it was less bright than usual
- it careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, and strongly radiated heat
- it was at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple
- its movement was exceedingly fast and whirling
- at times it appeared to be loosened from the sky
- it trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws
- it was silver, enveloped in gauzy grey light
- it whirled and turned in the circle of broken clouds
- the light turned blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral
- the light spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands
- and clothes previously wet with rain were suddenly and completely dry.
The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.
Not all people saw phenomena, though. In fact, many Roman Catholic believers said they saw nothing out of the ordinary.
Yet as a skeptic I don't believe any of these wonders happened. Because they was not reported anywhere else in the world. And there's only one sun.
Were the people who gave this anecdotal testimony lying?
No evidence they were lying.
They saw wonders. Skeptics didn't. Because nowhere else in the world did anyone report seeing anything unusual about the sun's behavior that day.
So the skeptics who didn't see wonders were not convinced by the impassioned testimonials given by the believers.
-----------------
So when we ask for historical evidence, we don't mean that we will be satisfied with two of the apostles agreeing with each other that there were miracles.
That would be like 'proving' Stalin was a wonderful leader by citing testimony given by fellow members of his party, such as "He had found Russia working with wooden ploughs and leaving it equipped with atomic piles," and foreign dignitaries such as U.S. Ambassador to Russia (1937-1938) Joseph E. Davies' testimonial that Stalin was "kindly and wise" .
----------------
Then there's this kind of historical evidence:
This too deals with oral history. (Remember many of the Christian testaments were oral history for many years.)
Robbie's family had a tradition, passed on from parents to children for over 200 years, that they were related to the "Royal" Stuarts (Sewarts), kings of Scotland and England for centuries.
Many of their friends and neighbors didn't believe them, even laughed at their pretentiousness.
But they had the last laugh. They carefully documented their lineage, supporting it with passenger lists, baptismal and marriage records, and other external and independent evidence, and showed that their ancestor Hamish Stuart was in fact the bastard son of King James VII's grandson.
------------
Now I know that since Jesus was born into an obscure family, there would be no records still existing to prove his birth. But comfort yourself with this fact: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
And, more importantly - don't pretend that when two apostles give a consistent story, this is proof that their statements are accurate and precise. The consistency may be thanks more to the cleanup operation of 325 c.e., after the Council of Nicea, which was convened mainly by Constantine the Great to do away with contradictions and all sorts of variations on tales and legends of Christian mythology.
In fact, that Council marked the true beginning of Christianity.
RobRoy
Not A Mormon
Lothian observes, "Contrary to your view it makes quite clear that Luke can only be believed where he stays within the limits of science. Supernatural is outside science, so virgin births, resurrection etc. is out I am afraid."
Doc asks, rhetorically, "Then why do so many websites say Ramsay converted to Christianity?"
Because religion is not based on reason, but on emotional need. We believe what we want to believe.
Doc asks, rhetorically, "Then why do so many websites say Ramsay converted to Christianity?"
Because religion is not based on reason, but on emotional need. We believe what we want to believe.
RobRoy
Not A Mormon
RobRoy complains " I so no mention of oil, muscles, or anything erotic whatsoever."
That's because your threshold of arousal is too high.
Oddly, my wife complains of the opposite.
Simon39759
Master Poster
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- Mar 4, 2009
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I no starting to regret making this joke for the tangent it brought in an already pretty pointless thread...
Especially as the joke was not very good to begin with (I am apparently not very good at writing gay porn, one more possible carrier closing its door to me...).
Especially as the joke was not very good to begin with (I am apparently not very good at writing gay porn, one more possible carrier closing its door to me...).
RobRoy
Not A Mormon
Shhhhh . . . my derail plan is going so well!
Carriers don't have doors. They have hatches.
Simon39759
Master Poster
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career then?
Don't pester me with petty details such as the English language!
Don't pester me with petty details such as the English language!
six7s
veretic
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I can heartily recommend http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111340career then?
Don't pester me with petty details such as the English language!
Enjoy!
RobRoy
Not A Mormon
No, I like the idea of planes taking off and landing on your back.
Don't pester me with petty details such as the English language!
Yes, sir. Right away, sir. What then shall I pester you about?
Simon39759
Master Poster
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Gurrgle...
Well... thanks A LOT for hurting my brain. I am still using it you know! And now, its resale value has pretty much shot down.
Last edited:
Z
Variable Constant
You know, there could be a real market for a homoerotic interpretation of the Bible - where Joseph and Marty have a son (a REAL mirace - forget the 'virgin birth'), who grows up surrounded by a dozen handsome, devoted men....
Just sayin...
Just sayin...
BobTheDonkey
Illuminator
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Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
The stories of David and Jonathan really don't need any re-translation to show the homoerotic overtones.
Z
Variable Constant
Well, it would certainly explain why Jesus never married... Maybe that's what was in the missing text of the Gospel of Mary: J and M swapping fashion tips and technique suggestions...
Simon39759
Master Poster
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Well, it would certainly explain why Jesus never married... Maybe that's what was in the missing text of the Gospel of Mary: J and M swapping fashion tips and technique suggestions...
You know, this argument has been seriously advanced by some historians.
Also, there is a bit of ambiguity between John and Jesus' relation.
And the gnostic's gospels have even more weird passages that could be interpreted as Jesus being homosexual.
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