Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Severely, indeed, Simon.
Still, I'll maintain I had my priorities straight.
 
DOC said:
Here is a composite of what non-Christian sources say about Christ:
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That is a very telling statement. I know you probably hit "submit" too soon, but I think it might be your subconscious undermining your own argument. It's clear that there are no non-Christian sources that directly reference Christ; it seems to be just wishful thinking on your part that there were.
 
zooterkin said:
Ah, got it. You're saying that there's no way the author of Matthew could have heard about the massacre of the innocents, even if it had happened, so the account must be made up.
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Well Jesus who was born in Bethlehem surely would of heard about it from his mother. And he would have about 3 years to tell the apostle Matthew.
 
DOC said:
They weren't irrelevant to the Roman emperor Nero as he was blaming them for the burning of Rome only about 30 years after the crucifixion of Christ.
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Yes irrelevant. Scapegoats are usually small minority fringers who are irrelevant and have no power.
Well as I stated earlier we have 10 non-Christian written sources for Christianity and Christ but only 9 non-Christian written sources for the Roman Emperor Tiberius Caesar who was emperor during the time of Christ.
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10 sources that document that Christianity existed and noted their beliefs? So?

BTW: Are you sure about the 10, since you've already discredited Josephus. Who are the others again?
When you add biblical sources there are 44 written sources for Christianity and Christ and 10 for Tiberius Caesar.
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So? Oh you're arguing that Quantity trumps quality.
Here is a composite of what non-Christian sources say about Christ:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4967314#post4967314
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That's a nice "composite" of what early Christians believed about Jesus. Was that suppose to be relevant?
 
DOC said:
Well Jesus who was born in Bethlehem surely would of heard about it from his mother. And he would have about 3 years to tell the apostle Matthew.
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So your only source is a "what-if";Jesus may have heard about it from Mary and may have then told Matthew? A whole lot of "may haves" which seems to be the crux of your arguments.

So that's a big NO on this corroborating evidence?
 
DOC said:
Well Jesus who was born in Bethlehem surely would of heard about it from his mother. And he would have about 3 years to tell the apostle Matthew.
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So, then, by your argument we could assume that MAry also informed Matthew that SHe and Joseph lived in Bethlehem and had not gone there because of a census?
I mean, which account is true? MAtthew or Luke?
 
DOC said:
I agree.

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Also, one has to remember that Josephus was friends with the Roman Emperor, even taking a trip with him to Egypt. If Josephus could write or not write something that would be detrimental to or nonsupporting of Christianity (a pain in the rear to the Romans) one could see how it might be tempting.

It would be like a historian being friends with Hitler and taking a trip with him to occupied France. Do you think that might influence his writings in any way?
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I've been trying to hunt down the story of when Josephus visited Egypt in the company of a Roman Emperor. Could you point me in the right direction, please?
From what I can find, Rome really wasn't concerned about the christians during the reign of Titus (which lasted only 2 years) please correct me if I'm wrong. The Jewish Wars and the destruction of Pompeii seems to have occupied their attention more than the christians.
 
DOC said:
This is incorrect:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4967314#post4967314

And non-Christian writers Tacitus, Josephus, and Seutonius all specifically mention Christ.
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You have been told multiple times that Tacitus is merely reporting what the Christians believe without researching it himself and that Josephus mention of Jesus was quite certainly a later add-on.
That you keep using Josephus unreliably modified account, not even mentioning how unlikely it is, after being corrected multiple times on the subject... it just smacks of intellectual dishonesty.
 
DOC said:
They weren't irrelevant to the Roman emperor Nero as he was blaming them for the burning of Rome only about 30 years after the crucifixion of Christ.
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a) There were still pretty much irrelevant.
Certainly, considering how easily Nero could blame them and punish them, they were not in enough of a position of force to defend themselves, let alone be 'a pain in the rear' at the time, as your post says:

DOC said:
Also, one has to remember that Josephus was friends with the Roman Emperor, even taking a trip with him to Egypt. If Josephus could write or not write something that would be detrimental to or nonsupporting of Christianity (a pain in the rear to the Romans) one could see how it might be tempting.
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b) Your post implies that the Romans at the time made the difference between Christians and Jews. It does not seem to me like most of them, including the higher-ups, knew and/or cared about the difference.
 
pakeha said:
I've been trying to hunt down the story of when Josephus visited Egypt in the company of a Roman Emperor. Could you point me in the right direction, please?
From what I can find, Rome really wasn't concerned about the christians during the reign of Titus (which lasted only 2 years) please correct me if I'm wrong. The Jewish Wars and the destruction of Pompeii seems to have occupied their attention more than the christians.
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Found.
It was Vespasian, while in Egypt, after the Egyptian troops declared him Emperor, who remembered a prophecy of Josephus claiming that he would be made Emperor.
Josephus was a prisoner of war at this moment, had his chains severed at Titus' recommendation and traveled in Vespasian's suite to Alexandria.
The story of how Josephus became a prisoner of war is an edifying one- the Josephus Problem.
 
zooterkin said:
That would actually be 10 sources for Christians, and none for Christ, wouldn't it?
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So then you believe the Roman senator and historian Tacitus just made up that Christus {Christ} suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilate.

Tacitus quote from Wiki:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians; see below] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

And the Roman/Jewish historian Josephus mentions Christ on two separate occasions.

The evidence is there like it or not, Christ was a real historical person. and most historians agree on that.
 
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Simon39759 said:
You have been told multiple times that Tacitus is merely reporting what the Christians believe without researching it himself...
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And how do you know this Roman Senator and historian didn't research this. Nowhere does he just say Christians said this -- he writes Pontius Pilate killed Christ. Why did he bring Pontius Pilate and Tiberius into the picture if he didn't believe it was true?


and that Josephus mention of Jesus was quite certainly a later add-on.
That you keep using Josephus unreliably modified account, not even mentioning how unlikely it is, after being corrected multiple times on the subject... it just smacks of intellectual dishonesty.
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Actually only one of the two Josephus references to Christ is seriously contested, and most scholars believe that the one contested reference is only a partial interpolation.

And more scholars believe that the one Josephus reference is question is totally true than believe that it is totally false. (as I've already cited in this thread)
 
OK, to move this argument along, let's say that I accept that there was a guy named Yeshua who lived, caused trouble, and died before 35 CE.

Now what evidence is there for all of the magical aspects to the tale?
 
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