Israels Universal Healthcare

[JoeTheJuggler]

they are not the same?

No, they're not.

You remember Joe McCarthy's House Committee on Unamerican Activities?

He targeted Americans almost exclusively.

ETA: From thefreedictionary.com citing the American Heritage Dictionary:

un-A·mer·i·can [pronunciation removed because the symbols didn't copy]
adj.
Considered contrary to the institutions or principles of the United States.

and citing the Collins Essential English Dictionary:

un-American
Adjective
1. not in accordance with the aims, ideals, or customs of the US
2. against the interests of the US

So mistaking the word to mean "foreign to the US" or simply "not American" especially in this context is just a misreading.

 

[Oliver]

I wonder why none of these people has appeared on this thread?

Rolfe.

Because they don't dare to criticize the Israeli UHC because it's a strong ally and does have a good system. In other words, they would make fools out of themselves in several ways.

But I wonder why Liberals didn't pick up the Israeli UHC as a counterargument to all the "Comrada* Health Socialism OMG" sort of criticism yet. What's their problem in daring to mention it?

*Canada

 

[DC]

No, they're not.

You remember Joe McCarthy's House Committee on Unamerican Activities?

He targeted Americans almost exclusively.

well i didnt remember but google did, thanks .

i think i understand the difference now

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

well i didnt remember but google did, thanks .

[derail]
I'm surprised you weren't aware of this chapter in our history. Sen. McCarthy might be seen as a political antecedent of "Dictator Cheney" (at least in their common disregard for civil rights and limitations on government as guaranteed in the Constitution).
[/derail]

 

[Rolfe]

Yup. Seems like Britain isn't a "strong ally" at all. So much for the precious "special relationship".

Rolfe.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

But I wonder why Liberals didn't pick up the Israeli UHC as a counterargument to all the "Comrada* Health Socialism OMG" sort of criticism yet. What's their problem in daring to mention it?

*Canada

I suspect because Israel is such an emotionally charged and politically hot issue that just mentioning it brings the sort of reaction we've seen here. It's hard to keep the discussion on healthcare.

 

[Cleon]

they are not the same?

No, they're not. Toyota is not an American company, but it's not an "un-American" company.

"Un-American" has a political context to it; as Joe pointed out, it has its roots in the Red Scare and McCarthyism. The assumption is that there is an overarching American ideology, and if your opinions stray beyond the arbitrary and vague limits of this ideology, you are therefore opposed to it - and by extension opposed to America, truth, justice, apple pie, and Superman.

In short..."Unamerican" is a buzzword used to demonize people with different opinions.

 

[DC]

No, they're not. Toyota is not an American company, but it's not an "un-American" company.

"Un-American" has a political context to it; as Joe pointed out, it has its roots in the Red Scare and McCarthyism. The assumption is that there is an overarching American ideology, and if your opinions stray beyond the arbitrary and vague limits of this ideology, you are therefore opposed to it - and by extension opposed to America, truth, justice, apple pie, and Superman.

In short..."Unamerican" is a buzzword used to demonize people with different opinions.

mmhh i got it but.

isnt Toyota Both? Non american but also unamerican?

or has Toyota cars for the US market with 5.x liter engines ?

 

[Oliver]

Yup. Seems like Britain isn't a "strong ally" at all. So much for the precious "special relationship".

Rolfe.

No no, Britain and Canada are strong allies as well, just not strong enough to circumvent healthcare related criticism.

I suspect because Israel is such an emotionally charged and politically hot issue that just mentioning it brings the sort of reaction we've seen here. It's hard to keep the discussion on healthcare.

Well, I suspect the same reason, but what bad things could happen to Liberals for bringing it up - I mean in a political context? Sure, the debate might go somewhat off-topic, but all the ridiculous comparisons by Conservatives about the hair-raising Canadian and British systems would vanish.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

mmhh i got it but.

isnt Toyota Both? Non american but also unamerican?

I doubt it. It's a capitalistic corporation, so I think it is right in line with "American" principles. For that matter, it might be considered "American" in the other sense in that it has plants located in the US. I think their plants are non-union, so they might arguably be more "American" than the big 3 US companies!

An example of something not American and "unamerican" might be something like the USSR or Cuba.

 

[Ziggurat]

mmhh i got it but.

isnt Toyota Both? Non american but also unamerican?

or has Toyota cars for the US market with 5.x liter engines ?

Toyota sells SUV's and trucks too. Haven't you ever heard of the Landcruiser? It's got a 5.7 liter engine. But if you need a car with a 5 liter engine (a rare breed, BTW), don't forget that Lexus is part of Toyota, and they have a car with a 5.0 liter engine.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Oliver: If the US had an outside donor who pumped (proportionally and per capita) as many billions (trillions?) of $$$ aid for free into their system as Israel gets, then a comparison of budgetary choices might be made on this matter, and others. There's a certain irony in that, now that I see it through that lens.

On the other hand, we can't use the Israeli system, Oliver since we don't have a West Bank: we have a West Coast.

Oliver, just looking at a map ought to have helped you there.

DR

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Oliver: If the US had an outside donor who pumped (proportionally and per capita) as many billions (trillions?) of $$$ aid for free into their system as Israel gets, then a comparison of budgetary choices might be made on this matter, and others.

So would you say the Israel health care system is "socialistic" and "unamerican"?

If that's so, then why do we support that system?

I realize the bulk of the aid we give Israel is military, but if they paid for that themselves, as you point out, without the outside donor, they couldn't provide this system to their citizens.

I guess my question is, if we have to choose between providing health care for Israelis or health care for us, it seems we're not making the right choice.

 

[Pardalis]

Because they don't dare to criticize the Israeli UHC because it's a strong ally and does have a good system.

There are alot of assumptions here. How do you know the Israeli system is not criticized by American conservatives, and how do you know they have a good system?

 

[Pardalis]

No no, Britain and Canada are strong allies as well, just not strong enough to circumvent healthcare related criticism.

Another big assumption without proof. How is Israel a "stronger" ally than Canada or Great Britain?

On what basis do you judge how one country is stronger an ally than the other?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

There are alot of assumptions here. How do you know the Israeli system is not criticized by American conservatives, and how do you know they have a good system?

I think both of these (I guess two constitutes "alot"!) are pretty safe. Even liberal politicians tread lightly when criticizing Israel. Many conservatives seem to think Israel can do no wrong.*

As for how good their healthcare system is, I admit I rely on Rolfe's opinion:

I just looked at the Wiki link. It looks like a good system, very similar to several of the systems the anti-Obama brigade are damning vociferously as evil communism.

*ETA: I wouldn't paint with a large brush and say that all conservatives are reluctant to criticize Israel. I think the original point was that those most zealously opposed to Obama's proposals are probably among those who are loath to say anything negative about Israel.

 

[Pardalis]

I think both of these (I guess two constitutes "alot"!) are pretty safe. Even liberal politicians tread lightly when criticizing Israel. Many conservatives seem to think Israel can do no wrong.

Do you have anything tangible to provide except your best guess? Better yet, let Oliver provide this evidence, after all, it's his contention.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Another big assumption without proof. How is Israel a "stronger" ally than Canada or Great Britain?

On what basis do you judge how one country is stronger an ally than the other?

I'd suggest amount of foreign aid we give as a yardstick. In fact, I think the number of taxpayer dollars we hand out is more pertinent than whatever it means to be a strong or stronger ally.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Do you have anything tangible to provide except you're best guess? Better yet, let Oliver provide this evidence, after all, it's his contention.

"I am" best guess is based on the rhetoric I hear. Even Obama, who has been painted as anti-Israel refers to Israel as one of our "stalwart allies".

 

[Pardalis]

I wouldn't take a German's assumptions on American politics as read, especially when that particular German has shown time and again to have an anti-Israel bias.

If he has evidence, he should show it.