• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Scalia, Thomas not bothered if the innocent are executed

Skeptic Ginger

Nasty Woman
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
96,955
Fortunately Scalia and Thomas do not echo the majority opinion on the Supreme Court at the moment.

Supreme Court Orders New Look at Death Row Case
The Supreme Court on Monday ordered a federal trial court in Georgia to consider the case of Troy Davis, who is on death row in state prison there for the 1989 murder of an off-duty police officer. The case has attracted international attention, and 27 former prosecutors and judges had filed a brief supporting Mr. Davis.

So here's a not so unusual case of a man convicted of a serious crime, in this case one that got the death penalty, without any physical evidence tying him to the crime, only eyewitness accounts. Time and time again eyewitness accounts have been PROVED unreliable. And in this case, not only that, but many of the witnesses have recanted saying they were coerced by police to say they saw Davis.

“The substantial risk of putting an innocent man to death,” Justice Stevens wrote in a concurrence joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer, “clearly provides an adequate justification for holding an evidentiary hearing.”...
Which you would think was a value held by the US Justice system.

Not so, according to Thomas and Scalia:
...“This court has never held,” Justice Scalia wrote, “that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is ‘actually’ innocent.”
:eek:

In other words, according to Thomas and Scalia, being convicted by unreliable eyewitnesses constitutes a fair trial and as long as you had a 'fair' trial then it's fine to execute you, innocent or not.
 
That view is not as unusual as you may think - probably the most influential judge in modern UK law, Lord Denning, held very similar views. In remarks about a campaign to get some people freed (who were later shown to have been wrongly convicted) he said "We shouldn't have all these campaigns to get the Birmingham Six released if they'd been hanged. They'd have been forgotten and the whole community would have been satisfied."
 
Actually, I find it disgusting every time I hear some prosecutor rationalize why they feel no guilt over sending some poor sap to prison for 20 years that turned up innocent. So no, I don't think the view is 'unusual'. Perhaps I should have titled the thread, hooray for the judges that used potential innocence as a reason to stop an execution.

I find the attitude appalling, regardless of how common it is. It's one huge flaw in our justice system. I understand the need for rules and the need for judges to base rulings on them, but there really needs to be some overriding principle of true justice in there along with the rules.

If I express my real response to Scalia's dissenting opinion the thread will just turn into a forum-right-wingers-bashing-skeptigirl, but I'm going to anyway. Reading Scalia's opinion when an execution was at stake made me think here is yet another reason why I hate the people in this country that support Scalia and Thomas and their politics.
 
Last edited:
That view is not as unusual as you may think - probably the most influential judge in modern UK law, Lord Denning, held very similar views. In remarks about a campaign to get some people freed (who were later shown to have been wrongly convicted) he said "We shouldn't have all these campaigns to get the Birmingham Six released if they'd been hanged. They'd have been forgotten and the whole community would have been satisfied."

It reminds me of Sir Humphrey from 'Yes Minister', who took the view that spending money to build a non-functioning hospital is not a problem as long as no-one finds out about it. Why? Because, as he saw it, the point of spending money on the NHS is not to make sick people well, but to make the public feel better about themselves.

Socialist comedian Mark Steel suggested making criminals into judges because they wouldn't discriminate on the basis of class and would be well-informed about crime. There are probably some problems with that approach, but it would definitely be an improvement in some respects.
 
Aleck Carpitcher is doing 38 years in Virginia for child molestation, despite the fact that his stepdaughter has admitted that she made up the story because she didn't like it that he got drunk and argued with her mom a lot and she thought it would get him out of the house.

But Virginia only allows "new evidence" for a period of 21 days after trial, so her admission doesn't matter and there he sits.
 
In other words, according to Thomas and Scalia, being convicted by unreliable eyewitnesses constitutes a fair trial and as long as you had a 'fair' trial then it's fine constitutional to execute you, innocent or not.

FYP.

As disturbing as it is, they might be right. I think it's a very bad thing to punish an innocent person, especially with death. But I also recognize that not every very bad thing is unconstitutional. This might be one of those very bad things that is constitutional. I'm not sure. Or to put it in other terms, having procedures to free innocent people when new evidence comes in is a very good thing, but I'm not sure if the Constitution requires it.


What's more disturbing to me than the judges and justices are the prosecutors who oppose these things. The proper role of the prosecutor is not to get convictions, but to get justice. I know some prosecutors take this maxim seriously. Apparently others don't.
 
Aleck Carpitcher is doing 38 years in Virginia for child molestation, despite the fact that his stepdaughter has admitted that she made up the story because she didn't like it that he got drunk and argued with her mom a lot and she thought it would get him out of the house.

But Virginia only allows "new evidence" for a period of 21 days after trial, so her admission doesn't matter and there he sits.

This kind of "tough on crime" paranoia really annoys me. Life is risky. We can't remove all risk at the expensive of putting people away who don't deserve it.

It's not the system's fault if a criminal commits a crime. It's the criminal's fault.
 
I recall a case where a man was convicted on the basis of faulty eyewitness testimony (that was basically a misunderstanding of what the young eyewitness actually said), and the court initially stated that despite new DNA evidence that showed someone else committed the crime, he should remain incarcerated because he was convicted on the basis of eyewitness testimony and not DNA evidence. The prosecution actually stated that he was innocent but should remain imprisoned on a technicality.
 
In the movie "The Fugitive," the Chicago cops are being quizzed by the media. One of the reporters asks whether Dr. Kimble (Harrison Ford) might be innocent. Detective Kelly (Ron Dean) makes a pained face and points out that Kimble is NOT innocent, but rather he was convicted in a court of law. "He's guilty!" Detective Kelly declares, condescendingly.

This attitude often evokes a very pained reaction from the audience (as it is supposed to). How could kind, loveable, handsome, intelligent Harrison Ford be "guilty?" Why are the cops so dismissive of the evidence discovered after his escape? Aren't the cops interested in justice?

And yet, this is actually close to a prevalent attitude, and it seems to be in accord with what some members of the court believe. You get one bite at the apple. You get one fair trial. If you get your fair trial and you are convicted, then you are guilty. The fact that the conviction was wrong does not matter. We can't start re-doing every trial merely because the convict says the verdict was wrong. If we did that, EVERY convict would want a second bite at the apple, and a third, and a fourth....

There is plenty of legitimacy in this concern.

In addition, police and judges know that after a conviction, people will (for various reasons) manufacture exculpatory evidence to show that the conviction was wrong. This is why the fair trial is given such weight; it tends to filter out some of the manufactured evidence.

Further, there is no injustice in saying that AFTER a lawful conviction, the burden of proof should be on the CONVICT to prove his innocence, if he can, and every reasonable doubt should be resolved in favor of the conviction, not in favor or innocence.

Now, having said that a conviction after a fair trial should be given extreme weight, it is ALSO true that sometimes the outcome of an ostensibly "fair" trial can be unjust. And there are supposed to be ways to address that injustice. One of those ways is by "post-conviction relief," which includes (but is not limited to) a federal habeas corpus petition.

(A request for "habeas corpus" relief means, basically, "You're confining me--you're holding my body or "corpus"--without having a legal right to do so.)

Putting the best face on it, Justice Scalia could be asserting that the convict has not made his case for innocence in all of his previous attempts for post-conviction relief: "[E]very judicial and executive body that has examined petitioner’s stale claim of innocence has been unpersuaded...." Further, there has not been any basis identified why the original trial was improper under the US Constitution ("...after a trial untainted by constitutional defect....") Still further, the crime was not a FEDERAL crime (murder being an offense against the STATE of Georgia), and the State refused to grant post-convistion relief. So why should a federal court stick in its nose?

Okay, fair enough, but the sticking point is that if we ASSUME for purposes of argument that the convict was as innocent as an angel, that the State of Georgia convicted an innocent man of a capital crime and stubbornly refused to correct its own error (or rectify its own nefarious misdeeds), does the convict have a right, under the US Constitution, to avoid being put to death?

Justice Scalia says no.

When Gerard comes face-to-face with Kimble in the dam, Kimble says "I didn't kill my wife!" To which Gerard responds (with a great deal of frankness, considering Kimble is pointing a gun at him), "I don't care!" But in fact, what separates Gerard from the Chicago cops is that Gerard in the end holds justice to be more important than upholding a valid conviction.

Justice Scalia would apparently say, "I don't care," even if the injustice were to be extreme.
 
So here's a not so unusual case of a man convicted of a serious crime, in this case one that got the death penalty, without any physical evidence tying him to the crime, only eyewitness accounts. Time and time again eyewitness accounts have been PROVED unreliable. And in this case, not only that, but many of the witnesses have recanted saying they were coerced by police to say they saw Davis.

Not true, at least according to the District Attorney who prosecuted the case. He states there was physical evidence connecting Davis to the murder (oh, by the way he was also convicted of shooting another man in the face and pistol whipping a homeless man earlier that evening) and that those who recanted always denied that they were coerced by the police.

http://www.savannahnow.com/node/597187

and the D.A.'s complete statement:
http://chathamcounty.org/Chatham/Davis___Media_Statement___Recover___REVISED_2_____10_OCT_08.pdf
 
Last edited:
When Gerard comes face-to-face with Kimble in the dam, Kimble says "I didn't kill my wife!" To which Gerard responds (with a great deal of frankness, considering Kimble is pointing a gun at him), "I don't care!" But in fact, what separates Gerard from the Chicago cops is that Gerard in the end holds justice to be more important than upholding a valid conviction.

Justice Scalia would apparently say, "I don't care," even if the injustice were to be extreme.


I haven't read through it all yet, but I am not sure this successfully encapsulates his position. Isn't what he saying "I can't help you" ?

The challenge to the Supreme Court seems to be read as "you 9 make the right outcome come out, regardless," which strikes me as having dangers of its own.

Or as I am sure your professors put it more than once : "Bad cases make bad law."
 
Having looked at it further, I just don't think he's saying what the OP seems to think he's saying.

With some deference -- because I think Brown does an excellent job in analyzing SCt opinions -- I think the "I don't care" comment is not a fair outline of Scalia's position at all.

i.e., The Federal courts have limited jurisdiction. This appeal does not fit into any of the established ways of allowing a SCt of a state court decision (a decision additionally reviewed by the state's Supreme Court, the Board of Pardons and Paroles, and a Federal Court of Appeals). If alleged innocence is a basis for such a review under the Constitution (and that argument appears pretty strong off the top of my head), then -- as he notes -- it should be briefed and argued before the Supreme Court. Instead, it is being sent to the District Court level for a "fact finding" -- reviewing the same evidence that was rejected by the reviewing authorities listed above. And then, he does not believe the District Court has the power to do anything under the law as constituted.

If the question is a Constitutional one, then it should be argued expressly to the Supreme Court. Sending it back down for one more fact-finding does seem a bit odd, putting the other issues aside.

And I have to think giving some amount of weight to the appeals process does not show him to be an inhuman monster, either. The facts have been reviewed multiple times -- including a year long review by the parole board with testimony allowed -- and found wanting.
 
Oh, one last thing. The quote "This court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is ‘actually’ innocent.” is being taken out of context.

As I read the decision, Scalia states the law allowing Federal habeas corpus of a state law case requires a "clearly established" violation of Federal law -- it bars the issuance of a writ of habeas corpus “with respect to any claim that was adjudicated on the merits in State court proceedings unless the adjudication of the claim . . . resulted in a decision that was contrary to, or involved an unreasonable application of, clearly estab-lished Federal law, as determined by the Supreme Court of the United States.”

So his comment was merely showing the present facts do not fit within the statute. A direct Consitutional challenge should, therefore not be sent down to the District Court, but should be given to the SCt itself to determine expressly if sucha right exists. It does not state such a right might not be found as existing by the Court, but the fact such a right has never been found in the past is relevant to show no violation of Federal law was "clearly established."
 
Last edited:
Aleck Carpitcher is doing 38 years in Virginia for child molestation, despite the fact that his stepdaughter has admitted that she made up the story because she didn't like it that he got drunk and argued with her mom a lot and she thought it would get him out of the house.

But Virginia only allows "new evidence" for a period of 21 days after trial, so her admission doesn't matter and there he sits.

Carpitcher's case is disturbing, but this is an inaccurate summary of it. Virginia passed a law rescinding that 21 day limit and Carpitcher's appeal was heard. What the judge ruled was that although the witness had recanted, the recantation was not trustworthy. Clearly the judge thought that the girl had been pressured into recanting by her mother.

Now, I can agree with a natural-justice argument that says "if the girl is not credible, how can we condemn this man to life in prison on her say so?" But from the appellate court's p.o.v. the people properly vested with the job of judging witness credibility are the trial jury. They judged the original testimony to be honest. That the same girl was later judged to be not credible on a different matter in different circumstances doesn't logically invalidate that original jury's judgment of that original testimony.

If I were an absolute monarch I'd let the guy out of jail (and this is exactly the kind of case for which executive pardons were designed--unfortunately they've become so politicized that I can't imagine any Governor or President being willing to be accused of letting a child-rapist out of jail); but I can understand the appellate court's ruling.
 
Last edited:
So his comment was merely showing the present facts do not fit within the statute. A direct Consitutional challenge should, therefore not be sent down to the District Court, but should be given to the SCt itself to determine expressly if sucha right exists. It does not state such a right might not be found as existing by the Court, but the fact such a right has never been found in the past is relevant to show no violation of Federal law was "clearly established."
I agree with this in part. Justice Scalia, in a rather surprising mixing of his points, says that the right to avoid execution is--at best--undecided. He also says that to the extent the federal habeas corpus statutes need to be considered, they should be considered in connection with a case before the full Court.

If the issue is undecided, then it does seem a bit strange to say that the issue ought to be decided--even temporarily--AGAINST the INNOCENT convict. Wouldn't it make sense to err on the side of letting an innocent man go free rather than putting him to death? Note that I do not say that the convict here actually is innocent; rather, I say that he would not have any purported right to get relief unless he was innocent. If he's not innocent (and Justice Scalia repeatedly returns to discussing how no one has bought his story so far), then he gets no relief.

Justice Scalia says that even if he's innocent, he has no federal right to be saved from execution.

Read Justice Stevens's response to Justice Scalia here. There are a few points of note (including suggestions that the purpose of such a district court hearing is to get the matter ready for full Court review), but one point struck me. Justice Stevens finds it strange that Justice Scalia would treat actual innocence as just another ground for federal relief:
JUSTICE SCALIA would pretermit all of these unresolved legal questions on the theory that we must treat even the most robust showing of actual innocence identically on habeas review to an accusation of minor procedural error. ... But imagine a petitioner in Davis’s situation who possesses new evidence conclusively and definitively proving, beyond any scintilla of doubt, that he is an innocent man. The dissent’s reasoning would allow such a petitioner to be put to death nonetheless. The Court correctly refuses to endorse such reasoning.
In effect, Justice Scalia would treat fully proven "I didn't do it" innocence as just another technicality. Aren't there stories that make fun of such jurisprudence?

By the way, I concede a bit with the "I don't care" remark. I don't think that Gerard was expressing absolute indifference, nor do I think Justice Scalia feels complete indifference. Gerard's position, which I think and maintain is quite comparable to Justice Scalia's, is that determining guilt or innocence IS NOT MY JOB. (As Gerard later says to Kimble on the phone, "That's right, Richard, I DON'T care; I'm not trying to solve a puzzle here," meaning that Gerard does not see it as his function to sort through the evidence and serve as judicial fact-finder.) Those who have the jobs of making such determinations and reviewing their validity have done their jobs and have found against the convict.

Where Gerard differs from Scalia is that Gerard felt that above all justice must be done. If a man was wrongfully convicted, even if his trial was fair, something must be done. Gerard removed Kimble from the reach of the state, which would seek to kill him if it could. But as you may recall, Gerard did not let Kimble go.
 
That view is not as unusual as you may think - probably the most influential judge in modern UK law, Lord Denning, held very similar views. In remarks about a campaign to get some people freed (who were later shown to have been wrongly convicted) he said "We shouldn't have all these campaigns to get the Birmingham Six released if they'd been hanged. They'd have been forgotten and the whole community would have been satisfied."
I think this view stems from a conviction that the interests of comunity come before the the interests of individual, and that the purpose of justice is to uphold overall order as opposed to individual rights.

Reminds me of a scene in "Flashman in the Great Game" where Harry Flashman asks Rani Lakshmibai why she allowed a man to be flogged half to death for a crime she knew he did not commit. Lakshmibai's answer was "What about example? The man was a hooligan and a scum; he did no commit this crime, but he commited others for which he was never caught. He got what he deserved, and the rest of my people saw that I let no crime go unpunished." (Quote from memory, so not exact.)
 
In other words, according to Thomas and Scalia, being convicted by unreliable eyewitnesses constitutes a fair trial and as long as you had a 'fair' trial then it's fine to execute you, innocent or not.

They ruled on something similar ten years ago, IIRC. Basically, if the trial was full and complete and normal challenges to errors (or whatever they're called) are all exhausted, then, as far as the Constitution was concerned, everything necessary was done to proceed with the execution.


Now why the local government in this case is trying to prevent the objection from even getting a review is another issue.

IIRC, if you prevent false evidence in a capital case, and the person is executed, and turns out to be innocent, you, yourself can go up on a capital charge. I would extend this to prosecutors who actively seek to prevent legitimate challenges that turn out to be valid.
 
Justice Scalia says that even if he's innocent, he has no federal right to be saved from execution.

Maybe I am misreading it, but he seems to be saying there is no established right to be saved from execution. That does not seem to foreclose a review by the SCt to decide it as a Constitutional issue, rather than a statutory one. This appeal was strictly under statute.

And I have to say, this isn't like the SCt is the only appeal the man had. He went through what appears to be the normal state appellate process and was allowed to present his new evidence, which was found wanting. Several times.

If we simply allow the Federal Courts to give an extra review of the same evidence after state courts have finished with their "final" appeal process when a convicted person alleges innocence, what is the standard for when to step in? Do we not simply make the Federal courts a defacto new level of appeal over state courts in a huge number of cases? If the new evidence was not considered, that would be one case. But where it is, but is found wanting -- why is the Federal court even more competent to review the same evidence yet again?
 

Back
Top Bottom