Moderated Thermite: Was it there or not?
- Thread starter Caper
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Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Thermite is a mixture of iron oxide and aluminium. Steven Jones has found evidence that iron, aluminium and oxygen were present in dust from the WTC. Since the building was made of iron and aluminium and surrounded by oxygen, Jones's claim that these can only be from thermite is, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit shaky. Since thermite can't be used to demolish buildings, of course, it's all about as relevant as whether Limburger cheese was present in the Twin Towers.
There are several threads on all this. Searching on "Niels Harrit", "Steven Jones" and "nano-thermite" may be a good start.
Dave
There are several threads on all this. Searching on "Niels Harrit", "Steven Jones" and "nano-thermite" may be a good start.
Dave
alienentity
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Yeah, what Dave said.
Here are two of the main threads on the subject at this forum:
The original
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4583433#post4583433
and the moderated followup
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140017&page=2
There is a truly excellent examination by sunstealer on the second.
A majority of truthers will tell you that the verdict is in, and it's proven to be nanothermite, but I think that's really jumping the gun. Jones et al. have not gotten to that point yet, despite their proclamations.
Personally, there are a few things that stand out to me, and a few questions still unanswered.
1) Jones and Harrit still have not identified the organic binder in the red chips. This is very important, because the chips produce more energy than thermite actually can. This is a product of energy density - ordinary paper, for example, releases far more energy than thermite, although not the same way. And it requires oxygen to burn, whereas thermite doesn't.
The ED of thermite can be calculated once you know the ingredients. Whatever those chips are, many produce too much energy. What are they? I don't know. Nobody does.
Also, the Jones boys don't know what the grey material is either. So they've just filling in blanks without really knowing. You see, they haven't ever actually tested any known nanothermite samples from any government labs, like the military research facilities.
They've also not had even one person with work experience in any of the government labs they allege the chips came from.
Those are big problems - there are too many unknowns to come to firm conclusions.
There are many other important obstacles to the theory of nanothermite, which I won't get into here. Wife's just put on a movie.
Later
Here are two of the main threads on the subject at this forum:
The original
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4583433#post4583433
and the moderated followup
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140017&page=2
There is a truly excellent examination by sunstealer on the second.
A majority of truthers will tell you that the verdict is in, and it's proven to be nanothermite, but I think that's really jumping the gun. Jones et al. have not gotten to that point yet, despite their proclamations.
Personally, there are a few things that stand out to me, and a few questions still unanswered.
1) Jones and Harrit still have not identified the organic binder in the red chips. This is very important, because the chips produce more energy than thermite actually can. This is a product of energy density - ordinary paper, for example, releases far more energy than thermite, although not the same way. And it requires oxygen to burn, whereas thermite doesn't.
The ED of thermite can be calculated once you know the ingredients. Whatever those chips are, many produce too much energy. What are they? I don't know. Nobody does.
Also, the Jones boys don't know what the grey material is either. So they've just filling in blanks without really knowing. You see, they haven't ever actually tested any known nanothermite samples from any government labs, like the military research facilities.
They've also not had even one person with work experience in any of the government labs they allege the chips came from.
Those are big problems - there are too many unknowns to come to firm conclusions.
There are many other important obstacles to the theory of nanothermite, which I won't get into here. Wife's just put on a movie.
Later
DT,
I'd disagree just slightly.
IMO, he didn't get fired over being wrong. Or over "making this up". (He also claims that he did not get fired. He claims that he & BYU reached "an agreement".)
Lots of professors publish lots of things that are completely wrong. And live to teach another day.
He was shown the door at BYU for subverting the academic process and, following in the embarrassing footsteps of Fleischmann & Pons, dabbling in "science by press conference".
And refusing to stop, for becoming a public embarrassment to the university, when he became notorious for it.
Even after he had released his first papers on the subject, if he'd retreated to his lab, done his science right, tried to get it reviewed & published, I believe that he would still be there. A small time kook, but still at the university.
It ain't easy to can a tenured professor.
Tom
Justin39640
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i would bet good money that there was infact more Limburger cheese than nanothermite in the towers (because of the restaurants in there)
Well being that the crime scene was majorly tampered with then I guess betting is the best you can do at this point. How convenient for you and your story about 9/11. So I guess the debunking of Steven Jones at this point is "All the physical evidence has been destroyed so you can't prove anything twoofer! nah nah nah na nah". Very good.
Hello yourself????
Justin39640
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if it was tempered with i guess you cant trust what jones and co found either
can you?
lol
TexasJack
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It least we won't see his obnoxious double spacing, unless he wants a quick exit.
alienentity
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Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
No, the debunking of Steven Jones is that his results don;t support his conclusions - in fact, they contradict them - and that, insofar as he has advanced any kind of hypothesis, it is absurd in that he's either postulating properties that it doesn't have or postulating an obviously unnecessary use for it, one incidentally that contradicts clearly recorded documentary evidence and physical evidence.
Dave
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
I just love an intellectual "dope slap"
The funny part is they have no clue it ever happened. Thanks Dave!
Dr Jones made this up 4 years after 911. From a letter Jones did when his insanity on 911 started on 9.16.05.
Thermite reactions can be seen on youtube; it is over quickly and the iron becomes solid quickly, there is no molten metal flowing in the basements. Jones made up thermite on 9.16.05 and always makes up a new smoking or loaded gun evidence stories to keep his insane idea alive in the minds of the gullible and hard core conspiracy theorists.
Jones new claim is the dust has thermite in it. Then he burns the fake thermite he has and it does not release the right amount of heat; this is chemistry so his delusional thermite claim was a failure and not the "loaded gun" he needs to earn his Pulitzer Prize exposing 911.
The giant problem with Jones insanity; there was zero thermite products found in the WTC pile. Zero. No thermite on the steel, no thermite cuts, no piles of thermite in the ruble pile. Thermite would be one of the easiest things to find in the WTC and it was not there.
Crazytimes
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Do you have any idea how stupid this is ?