The Electric Comet theory

[Dancing David]

DD my trollish friend, you need to do a little more studying before you can grasp what this thread is about, your complete lack of understanding here is blindingly obvious.

please re read this post


Then come back and write an intelligent comment on what you understand the EC theory as.

Yeah sure, it's my fault you can't post a coherent argument. Why don't you explain the density of comets again, how a body that is in the asteroid belt acquires a charge different from the other bodies in the asteroid belt and why a comet has more of a charge after it passes the sun?

Please call me a troll it makes you look even sillier.

 

[Dancing David]

DD make sure you read and understand what Reality check wrote in this POST this will stop a lot of going round in circles!

Nope, you are incoherent, the fact that your theory has no evidence is your problem, keep making it up.


the problem is you have a mish mosh of nonsense and refuse to put it to the acid test.

Why are comets larger after they pass the sun?

 

[Sol88]

Nope, you are incoherent, the fact that your theory has no evidence is your problem, keep making it up.


the problem is you have a mish mosh of nonsense and refuse to put it to the acid test.

Why are comets larger after they pass the sun?

what? please explain.

 

[Reality Check]

The EC assumption of EDM machining does not produce jets

EC universe:
Sol88 quoted Wal Thornhill:

The dust and gases that form the comet''s tail are not evaporated by the heat of the sun, but instead are electrically 'machined' from the nucleus by cathode arcs. Laboratory examination of cathode arcs shows that they jump around on the cathode surface, removing surface material in jets to form small circular craters. The industrial process of Electric Discharge Machining (EDM) uses this feature to erode a surface to accurate depth. To the naked eye, the EDM surface looks remarkably smooth. However, when viewed at high magnification, the peculiarities of the machined surface become clear. The tendency for the cathode arc to erode one high point then move to the next high point tends to generate chains of flat-floored craters. The finished surface appears as if someone used a circular cookie cutter to produce extended depressions and channels with scalloped edges. Variations in arc current will produce a layered or terraced effect both within craters and between adjacent craters.

No mention of jets or how EDM machining produces them.

Real universe:
Jets cannot be produced from EDM machining of "high points" on comets. The heating of the surface to machine it will cause material to escape in all directions. So there will be fans not jets. This will happen even if the "high point" is a flat surface.

To get jets in the real universe the EDM would have to happen at the bottom of pits or craters. By definition the walls of pits and craters are higher than their bottoms. The EDM will always happen at the "higher point". Therefore no jets.

 

[Sol88]

EC universe:
Sol88 quoted Wal Thornhill:

No mention of jets or how EDM machining produces them.

Real universe:
Jets cannot be produced from EDM machining of "high points" on comets. The heating of the surface to machine it will cause material to escape in all directions. So there will be fans not jets. This will happen even if the "high point" is a flat surface.

To get jets in the real universe the EDM would have to happen at the bottom of pits or craters. By definition the walls of pits and craters are higher than their bottoms. The EDM will always happen at the "higher point". Therefore no jets.

Go down to your local $2 shop and grab a plasma globe, observe the coronal discharge happening on the inner electrode, see the strands of light reaching the outer glass, these are commonly referred to as a beam or "jet"!

Plasma filaments extend from the inner electrode to the outer glass insulator, giving the appearance of multiple constant beams of colored light (see corona discharge and electric glow discharge). The beams initially follow the electric field lines of the dipole, but move upwards due to convection.[citation needed]

wiki

Slightly different in space but more or less the same process!

now compare that to YOUR (reality checks) understanding of "jet" production under the only option mainstream have

The black crust of the nucleus helps the comet absorb heat, which in turn causes some of the ices under the crust to turn to a gas. With pressure now building beneath the crust, the serene, but frozen landscape begins to bulge in places. Eventually the weakest areas of the crust shatter from the pressure beneath, and the gas shoots outward like a geyser and is referred to by astronomers as a jet. Any dust that had been mixed in with the gas is thrown out as well. As more and more jets appear, a tenuous gas and dust shell forms around the nucleus and this is called the coma.

Might convince the mindless sheep, but something is not right with that theory of jet production, as found by Deep space 1

"It's mind-boggling and stupendous," agreed Dr. Laurence Soderblom, the leader of Deep Space 1's imaging team, and a geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey, Flagstaff, Ariz. "These pictures have told us that comet nuclei are far more complex than we ever imagined. They have rugged terrain, smooth rolling plains, deep fractures and very, very dark material."

Scientists also realized that Borrelly was different than they expected as Deep Space 1 flew through the dusty gaseous coma. They had expected that the solar wind (a stream of charged particles flowing from the Sun) would flow symmetrically around the coma with the nucleus in the center.

The solar wind did indeed flow symmetrically around the cloud, but the nucleus was off to one side shooting out a great jet of material forming the cloud that makes the comet visible from Earth. "The formation of the coma is not the simple process we once thought it was," said Dr. David Young of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, leader of the team that made the measurements. "Most of the charged particles are formed to one side, which is not what we expected."

More surprises may await scientists in the data beamed back from DS1. It's only been a few days since the speedy encounter, note researchers -- not enough time to completely explore the data set. The most extraordinary discoveries may be yet to come.

LINK

Is that grumbles from the hallowed house of science I hear?

 

[Dancing David]

what? please explain.

Why are the tails of comets longer after they pass thesun, in the electric model.

After all it is not sublimation of frozen material.
You have said it is from the charge difference (which creates the coma and tail), which means that the charge difference is growing larger as the comet approaches the sun and passes the sun. And on it's way back out.

 

[Sol88]

Why are the tails of comets longer after they pass thesun, in the electric model.

After all it is not sublimation of frozen material.
You have said it is from the charge difference (which creates the coma and tail), which means that the charge difference is growing larger as the comet approaches the sun and passes the sun. And on it's way back out.

I do not understand?

Did you read this somewhere? link?

 

[Reality Check]

I do not understand?

Did you read this somewhere? link?

A bit of Googling reveals some statements that comet tails show their maximum development shortly after perihelion, e.g. this page about Hale-Bopp.
IMHO, the decrease happens after perihelion in the mainstream model because of the heat latency of the comet nucleus (it takes time to heat up to its maximum and then start to cool down).

EC proponents may have a mechanism to delay the decrease in EDM until after perihelion. Sol88?

 

[tusenfem]

EC universe:
Sol88 quoted Wal Thornhill:

No mention of jets or how EDM machining produces them.

Real universe:
Jets cannot be produced from EDM machining of "high points" on comets. The heating of the surface to machine it will cause material to escape in all directions. So there will be fans not jets. This will happen even if the "high point" is a flat surface.

To get jets in the real universe the EDM would have to happen at the bottom of pits or craters. By definition the walls of pits and craters are higher than their bottoms. The EDM will always happen at the "higher point". Therefore no jets.

Also you forget to mention that EDM will NOT machine watergroup ions, at most maybe oxygen from the crust (but who knows a clear description has never been given of what exactly happens in EDM) and thus the watergroup ions are supposed to be generated through local oxygen and solar wind hydrogen. Again no dynamic description of this process is given (as far as I can judge EDM will emit positively charged ions (O⁺????) because of the energetics, so how do O⁺ and H⁺ get together?)

 

[Reality Check]

Also you forget to mention that EDM will NOT machine watergroup ions, at most maybe oxygen from the crust (but who knows a clear description has never been given of what exactly happens in EDM) and thus the watergroup ions are supposed to be generated through local oxygen and solar wind hydrogen. Again no dynamic description of this process is given (as far as I can judge EDM will emit positively charged ions (O⁺????) because of the energetics, so how do O⁺ and H⁺ get together?)

There are so many things wrong with the EDM concept within the electric comet idea that it will probbaly take weeks to cover it all!

Another example, where is the dielectric fluid that the EDM manufacturing process requires?

Electric discharge machining (EDM), sometimes colloquially also referred to as spark machining, spark eroding, burning, die sinking or wire erosion,[1] is a manufacturing process whereby a wanted shape of an object, called workpiece, is obtained using electrical discharges (sparks). The material removal from the workpiece occurs by a series of rapidly recurring current discharges between two electrodes, separated by a dielectric liquid and subject to an electric voltage.

 

[Dancing David]

I do not understand?

Did you read this somewhere? link?

Which part don't you understand?
Comets are longer in terms of tails on their way back out? he size of the coma and tail being increasing is common knowledge.
Or what you posted about charge difference?

 

[Sol88]

Which part don't you understand?
Comets are longer in terms of tails on their way back out? he size of the coma and tail being increasing is common knowledge.
Or what you posted about charge difference?

That's splitt'n hairs in it?

Which tail would you like to talk about?

 

[Sol88]

Also you forget to mention that EDM will NOT machine watergroup ions, at most maybe oxygen from the crust (but who knows a clear description has never been given of what exactly happens in EDM) and thus the watergroup ions are supposed to be generated through local oxygen and solar wind hydrogen. Again no dynamic description of this process is given (as far as I can judge EDM will emit positively charged ions (O⁺????) because of the energetics, so how do O⁺ and H⁺ get together?)

What watergroup ions? Where's the water?

Did you miss the post about how the're thinking about go'n 'bout it on the Moon?

 

[Reality Check]

EDM in the EC idea needs a dielectric material which does not exist!

I had foolishly thought that the proposers of the electric comet idea knew a bit about electrical discharge machining. It seems that they do not.

EC universe: EDM removes material from the surface of comets and creates water from the material somehow.

Real universe:

Electric discharge machining (EDM), sometimes colloquially also referred to as spark machining, spark eroding, burning, die sinking or wire erosion,[1] is a manufacturing process whereby a wanted shape of an object, called workpiece, is obtained using electrical discharges (sparks). The material removal from the workpiece occurs by a series of rapidly recurring current discharges between two electrodes, separated by a dielectric liquid and subject to an electric voltage. One of the electrodes is called tool-electrode and is sometimes simply referred to as ‘tool’ or ‘electrode’, whereas the other is called workpiece-electrode, commonly abbreviated in ‘workpiece’. When the distance between the two electrodes is reduced, the intensity of the electric field in the volume between the electrodes is expected to become larger than the strength of the dielectric (at least in some point(s)) and therefore the dielectric breaks allowing some current to flow between the two electrodes.

If there is no dielectric material between the electrodes then there are no sparks and there is no machining.
In the EDM idea the workpiece-electrode is the surface of the comet. I do not know what the tool-electrode is (the coma?, the tails? the solar wind? maybe the Sun!).

There is no dielectric material above the surface of a comet - just lots of highly conductive plasma in the coma, solar wind and tail.

 

[Reality Check]

No EDM sparks are seen in images of comet nuclei

The last post just about kills the EC idea. But lets throw in a couple more points just for fun .

EC universe: EDM removes material from the surface of comets and creates water from the material somehow.

Real universe:
EDM involves sparking between electrodes. Sparks are quite visible. No such sparks have been seen in the images that have been taken of comet nuclei. The best example are the details images of Tempel 1. Thus the EC idea requires EDM sparks that are invisible in X-rays and visible light.

 

[Reality Check]

No EDM hot spots are seen in thermal maps of Tempel 1

EC universe: EDM removes material from the surface of comets and creates water from the material somehow.

Real universe:
Every jet that EDM in the EC idea produces must have an associated area of increased temperture (a hot spot) where EDM is converting/removing material. About twenty jets means about 20 hot spots.

We have a temperature map of Tempel 1.

How hot is it on Tempel 1? Researchers made a temperature map of the sunlit side. and found the hottest point nearly directly under the sun. It's 329 degrees Kelvin under the sun and 260 in the shade.
The coldest temperature is important because the temperature at which ices such as water, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide turn directly into gas is below 200 degrees Kelvin.
As you might expect, Tempel 1 is in equilibrium with sunlight meaning that there are no internal heat sources as there are within some planets. And that the surface does not retain the heat from the sun for long, it heats up quickly and cools quickly.

No mention of hot spots here except the one under the Sun.
Where are the other 19?

 

[Sol88]

I had foolishly thought that the proposers of the electric comet idea knew a bit about electrical discharge machining. It seems that they do not.

EC universe: EDM removes material from the surface of comets and creates water from the material somehow.

Real universe:

If there is no dielectric material between the electrodes then there are no sparks and there is no machining.
In the EDM idea the workpiece-electrode is the surface of the comet. I do not know what the tool-electrode is (the coma?, the tails? the solar wind? maybe the Sun!).

There is no dielectric material above the surface of a comet - just lots of highly conductive plasma in the coma, solar wind and tail.

The new device, a reactor developed by Derek Fray and his colleagues, was created from a modified electrochemical process the team invented in 2000 to get metals and alloys from metal oxides. The process uses the oxides — also found in Moon rocks — as a cathode, together with an anode made of carbon. To get the current flowing through the system, the electrodes sit in an electrolyte solution of molten calcium chloride (CaCl2), a common salt with a melting point of almost 800 °C.

Moon rock/asteroid/comet rock!!!

Electrolyte solution is the plasma that surrounds it and the dialectic is the comet surface itself

 

[Sol88]

The last post just about kills the EC idea. But lets throw in a couple more points just for fun .

EC universe: EDM removes material from the surface of comets and creates water from the material somehow.

Real universe:
EDM involves sparking between electrodes. Sparks are quite visible. No such sparks have been seen in the images that have been taken of comet nuclei. The best example are the details images of Tempel 1. Thus the EC idea requires EDM sparks that are invisible in X-rays and visible light.

Heard of coronal discharge

In electricity, a corona discharge is an electrical discharge brought on by the ionization of a fluid surrounding a conductor, which occurs when the potential gradient (the strength of the electric field) exceeds a certain value, but conditions are insufficient to cause complete electrical breakdown or arcing.

Look it up sport

 

[Reality Check]

Moon rock/asteroid/comet rock!!!

Electrolyte solution is the plasma that surrounds it and the dialectic is the comet surface itself

If there is no dielectric material between the electrodes then there are no sparks and there is no machining.
In the EDM idea the workpiece-electrode is the surface of the comet. I do not know what the tool-electrode is (the coma?, the tails? the solar wind? maybe the Sun!).

There is no dielectric material above the surface of a comet - just lots of highly conductive plasma in the coma, solar wind and tail.

 

[Reality Check]

Heard of coronal discharge

Look it up sport

So you are abandoning EDM for coronal discharge?
What do Wal Thornhill and David Talbot thnk about Sol88's version of the EC idea sport ?