Dimensions of Particles

I just have a conceptual problem with zero-dimensional particles, that is all :(

Lots of people do, but it always turns out you get worse problems assuming they're not 0-d.

But try imagining a particle of some finite size. You'll have no problem imagining a slightly smaller one, right? So just try imagining that electrons are smaller than any particle of finite size. That might make it easier to visualise. Or not. It's hard to know in advance which explanation will make sense to someone.
 
So you try to overturn the entire standard model because your poor little brain has a failure of imagination?

Have you considered that physics might not be the science for you?

I have a paradox for you. Answer it if you can.

If matter is a three-dimensional phenomenon, then how can matter itself be made up of zero-dimensional constituents?
 
I have a paradox for you. Answer it if you can.

If matter is a three-dimensional phenomenon, then how can matter itself be made up of zero-dimensional constituents?
Because their other properties produce 3 dimensional spacing between them.
 
Yes, i do have one somewhere but i will need to provide it later when i come back; for now, read this:

Now, according to physicist Fotini Markopoulou, the problems of time in a geometric sense is synonymous with the emergence of space itself - which is geometry. It absolutely requires no time whatsoever. He continues to say, ''By making the geometry not fundamental, we are able to make a distinction between the geometric and the fundamental time, which opens up the possibility that, while the geometric time is a symmetry, the fundamental time is real.''

The qoutation is one reference i will provide later.
 
I have a paradox for you. Answer it if you can.

If matter is a three-dimensional phenomenon, then how can matter itself be made up of zero-dimensional constituents?

They are still distributed in a three-dimensional space, aren't they? Are you asking why things do not instantly collapse into black holes?
 
Mechanics mechanic mechanics! Those not versed in your field of expertise will never get the gist of what you are saying, unless you can do like Einstein did and play "what if" as in the case of the space twins and the ball thrown on a moving train.
So do singularities HAVE to contain an entire universe? Can't there be empty singularities. And maybe an electron/ atom et al are inflated singularities. What would make a singularity inflate? Does a singularity become a "flatlander" before it tosses in the third dimension and inflates to volume? Do singularities really exist in this "volume with motion" universe or are they the figment of a mad mathematician like the square root of -1 and ONLY exist as represented by point 0,0 on a two dimensional graph, which itself doesn't really "exist" on its own in a multi dimensional universe. Its just an abstract thought shown on paper
 
Yes, i do have one somewhere but i will need to provide it later when i come back; for now, read this:

Now, according to physicist Fotini Markopoulou, the problems of time in a geometric sense is synonymous with the emergence of space itself - which is geometry. It absolutely requires no time whatsoever. He continues to say, ''By making the geometry not fundamental, we are able to make a distinction between the geometric and the fundamental time, which opens up the possibility that, while the geometric time is a symmetry, the fundamental time is real.''

The qoutation is one reference i will provide later.
Yes I like that. But you consider the powers of time as dimensions, isn't the logical step in creating dimensions to give mass or "volume" motion? Spin, velocity, acceleration, and jerk don't seem so exotic or hard to comprehend. They are everywhere, because everything from electrons to galaxies possess them all through relative motion
And motion gives geometry time
 
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V= d/t. So - Does time and space (represented by distance) have to exist to get velocity? Or does velocity have to exist to get space and time. 0 = 0/0 so I guess so. All three must exist simultaneously or none of it works. A definition of NOT having any of them could be called a singularity, no? So in the equation V=d/t it would be shown as 0=0/0 or in actuality a defintion of zero divided by itself. So 0/0, THAT Is what a singularity is:and that equals the number zero!
 
I have a paradox for you. Answer it if you can.

If matter is a three-dimensional phenomenon, then how can matter itself be made up of zero-dimensional constituents?

That's not a paradox. As wollery and Dorfl have already stated, matter is created from point-like particles distributed in 3-dimensional space.

The fact that you are unable to imagine such an assembly is hardly the fault of reality.
 
I just have a conceptual problem with zero-dimensional particles, that is all :(
Lots of people do, but it always turns out you get worse problems assuming they're not 0-d.

Are you ready to concede this point Singularitarian? It's not hard to convince yourself of the problems with finite sized electron models once you start doing the math. Really - A semester of non-calculus based physics is all you need.

You cited the Cohen paper - is there something about it you'd like to discuss or did you just google up the abstract? I'm very rusty on the material - and it's really not my specialty, but I'll slog through it if there's an actual reason for your citation.

But try imagining a particle of some finite size. You'll have no problem imagining a slightly smaller one, right? So just try imagining that electrons are smaller than any particle of finite size. That might make it easier to visualise. Or not. It's hard to know in advance which explanation will make sense to someone.

Try this first approximation: Think of a neutrino as a massless, sizeless bundle of angular momentum. (Q: But what's spinning? A: Nothing; it's just a packet of angular momentum).
 
That's false. It also has little or nothing to do with the question of whether particles are point-like or not.

Actually its not false, and has everything to do with the question of spatio and temporal distances, between zero-dimensional objects. Correctly stated, space and time are one entity. If time on the geometric level does not exist as current theory holds, then the dimensions of space do not exist linearly at all. Instead, we have a quantized space and time which remain fundamentally true, whilst, the geometry of space is not necesserily dependant on it. As i said early;

Now, according to physicist Fotini Markopoulou, the problems of time in a geometric sense is synonymous with the emergence of space itself - which is geometry. It absolutely requires no time whatsoever. He continues to say, ''By making the geometry not fundamental, we are able to make a distinctionbetween the geometric and the fundamental time, which opens up the possibility that, while the geometric time is a symmetry, the fundamental time is real.''

Concerning time, this imaginary dimension, which is not meaning it is ethereal in anyway without proof, takes off this spacetime triangle making the four-dimensional manifold of spacetime what it is, and what unifying them means. The math which described this was a new geometry:
[latex]s^2=-(c\Delta t)^2+(\Delta x)^2+(\Delta y)^2+(\Delta z)^2[/latex]
This equation is a Cartesian Coordinate of spacetime. In a Minkowskian Row Vector Notation in a bilinear form can be given as: [latex]V=(0,0,0,1)[/latex]. The Row Value of the Matrix is given as:
[latex]\eta=\begin{pmatrix}-1&0&0&0\\0&1&0&0\\0&0&1&0\\0&0&0&1\end{pmatrix}[/latex]
This makes a smooth manifold consistent of time and space as single entities.

Now, if we are to take relativity seriously, then the problems markopoulou mentions can we replace ''time'' with the equally problems of the geometry of real space. The timelessness of the geometry of space means that only the quantization holds any relevence or importance. The Wheeler-de Witt equation is [latex]\hat{H}\psi>=0[/latex] where the right hand side of the equation is the quantity of time, which is zero. This is how the timelessness is involved on large scales. Going back to the original question, ''space between two pointlike objects'' actually would mean we are to believe that a mass collection of zero-dimensional particles can make three-dimensional objects, using space. Geometry at the fundamental level does not exist, and any space between two zero dimensional particles is not very rewarding. The matter still does not make a three dimensional self. It's only an illusion if this be the case.
 
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Are you ready to concede this point Singularitarian? It's not hard to convince yourself of the problems with finite sized electron models once you start doing the math. Really - A semester of non-calculus based physics is all you need.

You cited the Cohen paper - is there something about it you'd like to discuss or did you just google up the abstract? I'm very rusty on the material - and it's really not my specialty, but I'll slog through it if there's an actual reason for your citation.



Try this first approximation: Think of a neutrino as a massless, sizeless bundle of angular momentum. (Q: But what's spinning? A: Nothing; it's just a packet of angular momentum).


It's not the math. If anything, the math gives us an opportunity to express things zero-dimensionally; but the indivisibility is in question. How finite must something be not to have a surface area? And note, a surface area must imply some kind of dimensions. How can something with a radius, for instance, like the electron (which vary's between calculations) be actually zero-dimensional, when the radii of something is a width?
 
Secondly no question is a stupid question. I am asking sincerally, whilst the radii is a measurement of a width, how can the electron have a width/radius?

I don't think I've heard anyone claim electrons have a radius until today. Do you have a source for this?
 
Now concerning what i was talking about, the radius of the electron. This is where i have become confused. A year ago, i was debating that the electron could not have a structure if it was poinlike, because someone was debating the radii of electrons. I was aware at that time that all measurements to calculate a radius have failed miserably, and if it has one, its extremely small.

Is it the language of physics which is giving me a hard time. When someone says to me, ''something has a mass'' i immediately associate a ''structure'' to that mass. How can something which has a mass not have some kind of internal structure?

I don't know how we can help you there. Sometimes we instinctively visualise things in a way which is feels right, but really is unfounded. Isn't it enough to say that, mathematically, point-masses work just fine, and that we cannot expect our intuition to depict things correctly on scales that small?
 
Well yeh, i'd be happy about that. But it would mean that essentially, these conceptual things are being described by an abstractual mathematics which seems to either confuse the language we use, or it distorts the very rationality of what is being suggested.

Either way, it would seem the universe does not like to have its complexities reduced so easily.
 

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