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Another 'war' in Gaza


That's interesting.
I wonder what was so special about that group.

Reuters lists some groups, many of which Hamas has fought with.
http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLH515758


The guy leading this particular group has been a critic of Hamas for some time:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418612530&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

JPost said:
Sheikh Abdel Latif Mousa, the founder and leader of Jund Ansar Allah who was killed on Saturday in Rafah, was considered one of the most influential preachers in the southern Gaza Strip, where his Friday sermons attracted thousands of young men.

He became so popular that his followers urged him to declare himself the ruler of an Islamic emirate in the entire Strip. Mousa's main argument was that Hamas had become too lenient and moderate.

About two years ago he abandoned the private medical clinic he ran in Rafah to devote all his time to spreading his anti-Hamas message and recruiting more followers.

Declaring an emirate was crossing a line, it seems.


Which is a political rival. Did they arrest anyone from Islamic Jihad?

I don't know. They fought with Islamic Jihad, shortly after they took control of Gaza, according to the Reuters link above.

Oh please.

Please, indeed.
Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?
 

Aug. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Hamas forces that rule the Gaza Strip clashed with gunmen from an al-Qaeda inspired group in fighting that left 22 dead and 120 wounded, hospital and Hamas officials said.

Six civilians, including two children, and six Hamas security officers were among those killed, Ihab al-Ghussein, a spokesman for the Hamas Interior ministry said in a statement. Fighting ended at around noon local time, the ministry said.
Obviously, Hamas was deliberately targeting children. :cool:
Before the clashes broke out yesterday, Hamas leader Ismael Haniya denied Israeli reports that radical Islamic militant groups were setting up operations in Gaza.

“No foreign fanatic organizations that act against the Americans are in the Gaza Strip,” Haniya told worshippers during prayers at a mosque in northern Gaza. He said Israel was spreading rumors to isolate the Hamas-controlled strip.
Well, there weren't any until Hamas started having armed clashes with them.

Lovely.

DR
 
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Declaring an emirate was crossing a line, it seems.

It was. It seems that as long as these groups were not seen as rivals Hamas was willing to let them keep their arms and even cooperate with them here and there. In contrast, Hamas' take over of the strip was all about disarming its main rival, Fatah. Now we see that if a group is having enough power, or advocating a policy which goes against Hamas interests, they will disarm these too.

Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?

The conditions do play a role. But I suspect that improving them will not solve the problem. There are other factors at play, such as the high social value given for martyrdom. Kids which grew up with this message all their lives are now reaching maturity. This will produce more than enough extremists for years to come. In fact, there is some irony in that. Hamas had to moderate somewhat its behavior due to the fact that it rules Gaza, and the same social forces which made Hamas more popular than Fatah are now leading to the creation of even more extremist groups. Hamas has the power and the will to use it and so I would expect that it will keep these groups under control for the next few years. On a longer time scale, who knows?
 
It was. It seems that as long as these groups were not seen as rivals Hamas was willing to let them keep their arms and even cooperate with them here and there.

This particular group was never friendly with Hamas -- at least as far as I can find, eg: the Jerusalem Post article.

The thing is, what does it cost to take them out? When does this cost get outstripped by the cost of leaving them alone? Believe it or not, Hamas needs to sell their intervention to the people of Gaza -- after all, it had a cost. The declaration of the "Gaza Emirate" gives Hamas a way to justify intervention.

What was Hamas supposed to do? Use the group's cavalry charge against an Israeli army base as their reason to take the group out? You may wish that, but such an action (I reckon) is beyond Hamas' political power.

There are plenty of things to criticise Hamas for. Choosing this story seems to be grasping at straws.

Hamas has the power and the will to use it and so I would expect that it will keep these groups under control for the next few years. On a longer time scale, who knows?

Well, exactly: who knows?
The clock is ticking. Even Fatah is trying to look tougher because they can't point to enough negotiated successes. If Obama wants to solve this before all hell breaks loose, then he doesn't seem to be hurrying.
 
This particular group was never friendly with Hamas -- at least as far as I can find, eg: the Jerusalem Post article.

The thing is, what does it cost to take them out? When does this cost get outstripped by the cost of leaving them alone? Believe it or not, Hamas needs to sell their intervention to the people of Gaza -- after all, it had a cost. The declaration of the "Gaza Emirate" gives Hamas a way to justify intervention.

What was Hamas supposed to do? Use the group's cavalry charge against an Israeli army base as their reason to take the group out? You may wish that, but such an action (I reckon) is beyond Hamas' political power.
I acknowledge that Hamas had to consider all that. I also happen to think that Hamas' control of Gaza is a huge barrier to political attempts of solving the P/I issue. Anyway, a discussion on that is probably best left out for another thread.

There are plenty of things to criticise Hamas for. Choosing this story seems to be grasping at straws.
Umm, I think you had a very basic misconception regarding the reason I had for starting this thread.I had no intention of either praising, or criticizing Hamas. Rather I wanted to bring a piece of news which was interesting, and could be indicative of long range trends.

In fact, I find most of the P/I threads to either start or almost immediately become just an avenue for feeling good by virtue of blaming "the other side" for everything. As a result, most of these are absolutely useless. I would not want to add one more to the list. In fact, I had a good idea for an analysis of the current US administration opening moves on the Arab-Israeli front, and decided not to create a thread as I feared it will be a wasted effort. (Failure on many levels, if you are curious.)
 
Please, indeed.
Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?

Ding ding ding ing. You just won the Blame It On The Jews contest. Congratulatons. The Mossad is behind al-Qaeda, but, sshhh, don't tell anyone.

Conditions are bad in Gaza because the savages destroyed the greenhouses that Jews paid tens of millions of dollars for and then gifted to them. The conditions are bad because their government is at war with Israel. The conditions are bad because they refuse to renounce terrorism and let Israelis live in peace.
 
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If Obama wants to solve this before all hell breaks loose, then he doesn't seem to be hurrying.
Maybe this wasn't Obama's problem to solve. Maybe this is Hamas growing up and realizing that once you are in charge, your behavior changes, and it has to. If you spend too much time as the foaming at the mouth opposition, the change may be slow, or not take place at all. I've seen mention in this thread that Hamas is possibly open to negotiations. What a nice change from a couple of years ago, if true.

Why do you demand that Obama solve this problem, and quickly? He's got his own cats to herd at the moment. Time is something that apparently the Pals played to their advantage for a while, and now there is a hurry?

The solution won't come from without, it will come from within. I see this as a golden opportunity for Obama/US and Hamas to find something in common: "You don't like Al Qaeda, we don't like Al Qaeda. We have that in common, where else can we find common cause?"

DR
 
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Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?

And Hamas' actions aren't contributing to conditions in Gaza?

Hamas is an extremist organisation. They aren't moderates and it speaks badly of your belifs if you think they are moderates.
 
I've seen mention in this thread that Hamas is possibly open to negotiations. What a nice change from a couple of years ago, if true.

It would be a nice change, but I'd like to see some evidence.

Why do you demand that Obama solve this problem, and quickly? He's got his own cats to herd at the moment.

Its the same old story. The people who demand that Obama steps in and solves this NOW are the same people who complain about any and every instance of US intervention.
 
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Maybe this wasn't Obama's problem to solve. Maybe this is Hamas growing up and realizing that once you are in charge, your behavior changes, and it has to. If you spend too much time as the foaming at the mouth opposition, the change may be slow, or not take place at all. I've seen mention in this thread that Hamas is possibly open to negotiations. What a nice change from a couple of years ago, if true.

Why do you demand that Obama solve this problem, and quickly? He's got his own cats to herd at the moment. Time is something that apparently the Pals played to their advantage for a while, and now there is a hurry?

The solution won't come from without, it will come from within. I see this as a golden opportunity for Obama/US and Hamas to find something in common: "You don't like Al Qaeda, we don't like Al Qaeda. We have that in common, where else can we find common cause?"

DR

Why is it the United States problem? An unsavory government, an even more unsavory government, and a terrorist organization are putting holes in each other. This one isn't even involving Israel much, and they're the only ones we really have the right/ability to criticize and/or pressure (for 100 billion dollars, they better damn well listen to us when we make suggestions).
 
Why is it the United States problem? An unsavory government, an even more unsavory government, and a terrorist organization are putting holes in each other. This one isn't even involving Israel much, and they're the only ones we really have the right/ability to criticize and/or pressure (for 100 billion dollars, they better damn well listen to us when we make suggestions).

I don't see Egypt, which receives billions in US foreign aid, "better damn well listening" to the US about instituting democratic principles and recognizing basic human rights. And, Egypt gives the US very little in return whereas Israel returns an incalculable amount.
 
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Care to be a little less vague?


Since 1967, Israel has given to the Pentagon Soviet military equipment captured in conflicts with Soviet-supported Arab countries, providing important data. Israel gave the US a full squadron of MiG-21s which was called the “Top Gun” squadron and used by the U.S. Air Force and Navy for training purposes.

In 1970, Israel forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army from US-ally Jordan while the U.S. was involved militarily in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, helping to prevent the collapse of a pro-American government and the installation of a pro-Soviet regime.

In the 1973 War, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian armies. Israel shared captured Soviet equipment with the US. Israel emerged the one reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned and where the U.S. has friendly port facilities, saving the US billions of dollars.

In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft systems in Lebanon that were considered impenetrable by American weapons. Israel shared with the US insights from the conflict, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

Senator Daniel Inouye has stated that Israeli data on the Soviet military has saved the U.S. billions of dollars and that the contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America exceeds information provided by all NATO countries combined.

In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, stalling Saddam Hussein’s nuclear capabilities and allowing the U.S. to engage in conventional warfare with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

Israel has provided critical analysis of the F16 to General Dynamics that resulted in 600 improvements, including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

In the Gulf War, Israel provided the US with key intelligence, air cover for military cargo and had IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots.

The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

The US military benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for Allied forces through Iraqi minefields.

Mobile bridges flown directly from Israel to Saudi Arabia were used by the U.S. Marine Corps

Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhanced the range of F15 aircraft used in the Gulf War.

An Israeli-produced targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

Israel manufactured the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

A low-altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sandbags.

Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, has stated that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He said that between 1974 and
1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants, but, that in the same timeframe Israel provided the U.S. with $50-$80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings and Soviet weapons systems given to the U.S.

Israel shares with the US important experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs.

In preparation for the Iraq War, American soldiers trained in IDF facilities and Israeli drones flew above the Sunni Triangle and in Afghanistan providing U.S. Marines with critical intelligence.

In Iraq, Israeli advisers have trained US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders.

The IDF sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and Israeli military consultants have also visited Iraq.

The US Army also travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas. The IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces. The Pentagon regularly asked the IDF to debrief on operations similar to those engaged in by US military forces.

An American liaison team had been responsible for coordinating efforts and intelligence between the Pentagon, the IDF, and American forces. Major General Charles Simpson, the chief liaison officer for the U.S. Army, met repeatedly with IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon on this joint project.

Joint air force exercises, such as the Juniper Cobra, had taken place between Israeli and the American Patriot artillery in the Negev and radar units from the U.S. Sixth Fleet. Noble Dina, an anti-submarine warfare exercise, were executed with the combined efforts of the Israel Navy and the Sixth Fleet.

American soldiers were in Israel prior to the Iraq war to work with anti-missile defenses, both the U.S.-made Patriot and the Arrow, developed by both Israel and the U.S.

The U.S. sailed an aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman, into the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft allowed U.S. planes to reach Iraqi targets by flying over Israeli and Jordanian territory. Israel has permitted the use of its air zones.

Israel has been sharing with the US its experience in combating Palestinian terrorism, which has been helpful in the US's war in Afghanistan. The US military benefits from Israel’s tactics against suicide bombers, car bombs and improvised explosive devices.

Most of the US military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States, which benefits US military contractors.

In contrast to US commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and numerous other countries in which the US has over 100 military bases, the US has no military bases in Israel.

Former Secretary of State and NATO forces Commander Alexander Haig has said that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is "the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security"
 
Since 1967, Israel has given to the Pentagon Soviet military equipment captured in conflicts with Soviet-supported Arab countries, providing important data. Israel gave the US a full squadron of MiG-21s which was called the “Top Gun” squadron and used by the U.S. Air Force and Navy for training purposes.

In 1970, Israel forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army from US-ally Jordan while the U.S. was involved militarily in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, helping to prevent the collapse of a pro-American government and the installation of a pro-Soviet regime.

In the 1973 War, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian armies. Israel shared captured Soviet equipment with the US. Israel emerged the one reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned and where the U.S. has friendly port facilities, saving the US billions of dollars.

In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft systems in Lebanon that were considered impenetrable by American weapons. Israel shared with the US insights from the conflict, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

Senator Daniel Inouye has stated that Israeli data on the Soviet military has saved the U.S. billions of dollars and that the contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America exceeds information provided by all NATO countries combined.

In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, stalling Saddam Hussein’s nuclear capabilities and allowing the U.S. to engage in conventional warfare with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

Israel has provided critical analysis of the F16 to General Dynamics that resulted in 600 improvements, including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

In the Gulf War, Israel provided the US with key intelligence, air cover for military cargo and had IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots.

The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

The US military benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for Allied forces through Iraqi minefields.

Mobile bridges flown directly from Israel to Saudi Arabia were used by the U.S. Marine Corps

Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhanced the range of F15 aircraft used in the Gulf War.

An Israeli-produced targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

Israel manufactured the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

A low-altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sandbags.

Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, has stated that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He said that between 1974 and
1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants, but, that in the same timeframe Israel provided the U.S. with $50-$80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings and Soviet weapons systems given to the U.S.

Israel shares with the US important experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs.

In preparation for the Iraq War, American soldiers trained in IDF facilities and Israeli drones flew above the Sunni Triangle and in Afghanistan providing U.S. Marines with critical intelligence.

In Iraq, Israeli advisers have trained US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders.

The IDF sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and Israeli military consultants have also visited Iraq.

The US Army also travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas. The IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces. The Pentagon regularly asked the IDF to debrief on operations similar to those engaged in by US military forces.

An American liaison team had been responsible for coordinating efforts and intelligence between the Pentagon, the IDF, and American forces. Major General Charles Simpson, the chief liaison officer for the U.S. Army, met repeatedly with IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon on this joint project.

Joint air force exercises, such as the Juniper Cobra, had taken place between Israeli and the American Patriot artillery in the Negev and radar units from the U.S. Sixth Fleet. Noble Dina, an anti-submarine warfare exercise, were executed with the combined efforts of the Israel Navy and the Sixth Fleet.

American soldiers were in Israel prior to the Iraq war to work with anti-missile defenses, both the U.S.-made Patriot and the Arrow, developed by both Israel and the U.S.

The U.S. sailed an aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman, into the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft allowed U.S. planes to reach Iraqi targets by flying over Israeli and Jordanian territory. Israel has permitted the use of its air zones.

Israel has been sharing with the US its experience in combating Palestinian terrorism, which has been helpful in the US's war in Afghanistan. The US military benefits from Israel’s tactics against suicide bombers, car bombs and improvised explosive devices.

Most of the US military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States, which benefits US military contractors.

In contrast to US commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and numerous other countries in which the US has over 100 military bases, the US has no military bases in Israel.

Former Secretary of State and NATO forces Commander Alexander Haig has said that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is "the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security"

beautiful cut and paste job. now you wanna provide the author of this lengthy spiel?
 
beautiful cut and paste job. now you wanna provide the author of this lengthy spiel?
probably not....

Doubt he even more than skim read it before deciding it would do as a wall-o-text.

Hey Marc39, tell me more about his one.

"IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots."

I had never heard about the IDF having ground forces in Iraq....tell me more.
 
Umm, I think you had a very basic misconception regarding the reason I had for starting this thread.I had no intention of either praising, or criticizing Hamas. Rather I wanted to bring a piece of news which was interesting, and could be indicative of long range trends.

Fair enough.
I guess some of my reaction was reflex -- I've spent too long at the JREF politics forum! :D
 
"IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots."

I had never heard about the IDF having ground forces in Iraq....tell me more.
beautiful cut and paste job. now you wanna provide the author of this lengthy spiel?

As much as these two have their heads in the sand when it comes to the Mid-East, I gotta agree with them here.

I would really like to know where you got all that from so I could check it out myself.
 
As much as these two have their heads in the sand when it comes to the Mid-East, I gotta agree with them here.

I would really like to know where you got all that from so I could check it out myself.
Hmmm, his excuse for me for not telling where he got it will probably just be hand-waving and telling me I know nothing. As for yours??My best guess is he will just ignore your request.....
 
Well, it certainly gives us a preview of what a Palestinian state would be like.

Long live the peace, I mean the terrorism, process.

It's all the occupation's fault, however.

Oh wait, Gaza isn't occupied.

But it's Israel's fault anyway due to the blockade.

Or something.
 
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Well, it certainly gives us a preview of what a Palestinian state would be like.

Long live the peace, I mean the terrorism, process.

It's all the occupation's fault, however.

Oh wait, Gaza isn't occupied.

But it's Israel's fault anyway due to the blockade.

Or something.

If Israel didn't exist, the Arabs would need to invent it to blame for all their problems and failures.
 

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