Deeper than primes

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Fisher,

I'm getting to this late in the evening, so I'll just make a few comments, and get things underway.

Apathia,
I'm getting an image, here, that a set (small s) is like a slit providing a view into the Set (large S). The size and focus of the slit is a characteristic of the set so that the set of all sums of 3 and 2 puts only 5 into view. The rest of the Set is still there, but it has been put just out of sight by the limitations imposed on our set.

That's a good analogy, at least as I understand basic Doron.
We can focus and slide the slit and tally, so to speak the results we see from the various positions. And this "tally" amounts to Doron's Organic Number fractual tree.
Ok. So far, this seems compatible with my set-slit-Set analogy.



And, now, it is falling apart. Up until the point, I had a sense of potential versus actual membership, but it never congealed as a parallel versus serial structure.

I didn't quite get your parallel/serial distinctions.

Earlier on I thought Doron intended the "parallel" aspect of his Organic Numbers to mean potential or virtual membership.
That "in parallel" denoted a number in virtuality with the potential of becoming "serial" or number as we know it.

But Doron more often looks at it from The Set (uppercase) side where all the elements are actual, rather than potential, members. And where they are regarded as simply numbers, both parallel and serial.
(There's a bluring here that I'm having a problem with. It becomes just numbers in an off site location, rather than the idea of meta or uber elements.

But the best way to approach his parallel/serial distinction is to use the body anaolgy.
I can count the individual cells.
Or I can count the organs.
Or I can count the systems.

When I add up the organs, I get a serial result.
I have ignored the number of constituent cells, so that number remains in parallel.

If I count the systems, there's a new and different serial result, and now the number of organs is in parallel.

Each of these different sums is ever present in The Set, though the set (lowercase) has a limited range.

Doron regards The Set as the reality, while the set is a mere shadow.
Your slit is on a pair of spectacles you are wearing.
The set (lowercase) is an illusion based on a limitation of your vision.
So your set (lowercase), no matter how your limitation defines or confines, isn't really complete. You really ought to regard things from The Set or Non-Local side. or what it is apart from the slitted specs.

Sure, you can have your different sums for practical accounting, but his Organic Number Tree wants to make you see that all the other sums are present as well. They are always present.
Though you've counted the organs but not their individual cells.
The number of cells is there to be reckoned with.
Reckoned though not counted.

“Parallel”
“Serial”
As usual you have to set aside the conventional meanings to get anywhere in Doron.
The uncounted cells are in parallel. Number in that aspect is merely noting their “existence” or the “existence” of such a number. Here is where he makes of “cardinality” a “measure of existence.”
 
Apathia said:
As usual you have to set aside the conventional meanings to get anywhere in Doron.

The uncounted cells are in parallel. Number in that aspect is merely noting their “existence” or the “existence” of such a number. Here is where he makes of “cardinality” a “measure of existence.”

Thank you Apathia, you have fine view.

Let me add some details:

By using Direct Perception I show that from one hand Standard Math does not ignore Complexity in order to distinguish between
S members (S={ {{}}, {{a}}, {{a,b}}, {{b}}, ... , {{a,b,c,...}}, ...}), and on the other hand it ignores Complexity when Cardinality is measured.

For more details, please see http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4972511&postcount=5578 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4984812&postcount=5603.

By OM we simply aware of these facts and do our best in order to not be based on hidden assumptions that may lead us to wrong generalizations.

Apathia said:
doronshadmi said:
This isn't the place to discuss various school and styles of meditation.
But the Soto Zen "Just Sitting" is quite compatable with your bleaching analogy.
Direct Perception training works only if both meditation and daily life activity complement each other. Any method that is based on meditation-only or daily-life-activity-only, is not Direct Perception training.

Please reply to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5008114&postcount=5726.
 
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D: What is the source of your actions?

J: My mental activity.

D: What is the source of your mental activity?

J: My brain.

D: What is the source of your brain?

J: The materials that it is built from.

D: What is the source of the materials that it is built from?

J: Chemical elements.

D: Let us take the Chemical elements of your body and put them in different jars, without omitting even a single particle. Do you think that that you still able to answer to my first question (if not, then please tell us why not?)

non sequitur
 
Direct Perception training works only if both meditation and daily life activity complement each other. Any method that is based on meditation-only or daily-life-activity-only, is not Direct Perception training.

Please reply to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5008114&postcount=5726.

Sitting meditation merely provides a simple situation to practice awareness without as many distractions. Of course the practice extends over into our daily living. Both Zen (throughout its various schools) and Vipassana (Insight Meditation) explicitly state the point you make above.

Is the point and purpose of OM to see and continue to regard others as individual persons rather than merely objects of a collective?

Encountering others as Subject rather than an object of a class, object of an agenda, or object of analysis is certainly the basis of empathy, sympathy, and ethical behavior toward them.

In the examples of different levels of cardinality we've been following, (including the analogy of the body's cell's, organs, and systems) we've noticed that a mere counting of the organs can ignore the individual cells.
Their 'existence" isn't taken into account.

But their existence as what?
Objects of "cardinality,' it seems.
We have different levels of reckoning, but does that reckoning necessarily translate into Respect.

Ethical behavior (when not just a blind obedience to social rules) comes from relating to others not as objects or elements of mathematical discourse subjects in the own right and light.

I understand your intention to make a language that unites ethical regard and science.
But here's the question:
Will a person using your Organic Numbers to account for the different levels of "cardinality." necessarily be regarding people as more than just elements of the reckoning?

OM represents the Non-Local nature of number by positing a meta level of numerical discourse, but that representational level is still about elements, objects of "cardinal" discourse. They are objects of mathematical manipulation.

So far an individual could be taking into account those different levels of "complexity," yet not at all touch "souls."

Mathematics treats every one as a straw dog to be burned on the funerary pile, yet is at the same time a tool that can be used to improve the physical circumstances of our lives.
I see you want a mathematics that does more, that has humanity built into it.
But I'm not seeing that you are achieving this, except to make a mathematical metaphor to represent the Non-Local Essence of individuals.

And what's going to insure that people doing your yet unpresented mathematical manipulations will get the metaphor?

We return to what is needed is “Direct Perception,” prior to mathematical representations.
And there are people who get humanity, while they may not get your representation.
 
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Ah but that is not Doron’s direct perception Apathia, Doron’s direct perception is quite literally “Doron’s”. That is to say unless you are perceiving things exactly the way he does, which he does not even seem to know how he is perceiving them most of the time, then you are not properly trained in direct perception. (Does this mean “direct perception” training camps Doron, for all non-conformists?). Again it should transcend “bla, bla, bla” or what Doron refers to as verbal only communication, which would be fortunate since communicating it verbally has proven to be an abysmal failure. Unfortunately singular or conformed thinking has never proven to be an effective basis of morally integrity, but simply makes standard transgressions acceptable and common place. True morally integrity (or as true as we can get) comes from moral and ethical diversity since it is only by comparing different concepts of such that relative comparisons can be made. Sorry but morally and ethically it just seems like a whole lot of brain washing to me and not any kind of ethical or moral improvement. In fact as I have mentioned before it seem exactly like the moral and ethical consideration of dictatorship that Doron has expressed his distain for. However this gets hidden and concealed by the positing of “direct perception” since it is not Doron dictating, but should be the result of “direct perception”. That veil of self deception is easily seen beyond by everyone else on this thread as Doron is more then happy and willing to dictate what does and does not constitute “direct perception” without actually defining what does and does not constitute “direct perception”.
 
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it seems as if he wants to redefine cardinality of a set as, informally said, the size of the flattened set: when a member of said set is a set itself, you take its members into consideration, and apply this recipe recursively. Of course, you could define this formally (you and I could, doron can't), but the result would be very trivial; there being no Urelements in ZF, the size of all sets would be 0.

Well, Doron's re-axiomatization of mathematics started with the totally incoherent, and advanced to the level of being merely self-contradictory. With a bit more effort, such as your axiomatization, he might reach the point where it is merely trivial.

Speaking as a logician (wellllllll, someone who studies some logic and set theory...) this actually is an improvement, surprisingly enough.
 
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Well, Doron's re-axiomatization of mathematics started with the totally incoherent, and advanced to the level of being merely self-contradictory. With a bit more effort, such as your axiomatization, he might reach the point where it is merely trivial.
Hmm, I must have missed the part where Doron actually wrote something resembling axiomatization. Or was that three threads ago? Man, that seems now like eons ago.

Speaking as a logician (wellllllll, someone who studies some logic and set theory...) this actually is an improvement, surprisingly enough.
Not so surprising: it advances a term from the status "nonsense" to the status "insignificant".

And it frees up electrons for other threads. :)
 
True morally integrity (or as true as we can get) comes from moral and ethical diversity since it is only by comparing different concepts of such that relative comparisons can be made.

Let us translate it to OM.

Diversity is exactly the result of localities that are compared with each other by non-locality.

As a result we get a non-trivial complexity, which is fundamentally open and therefore incomplete (= as true as we can get).

It is clearly written in the abstract of http://www.scribd.com/doc/17504323/WZATRP8 :

An original observation of Zeno's Achilles\Tortoise Race Paradox is introduced. It leads to novel understanding of the foundations of mathematical science, especially by observing Non-locality and Locality as its fundamental building-blocks. Locality is precisely its own formula, thus this formula cannot be used as a solution for anything else but its own unique case. Non-locality is a formula that can be used as a solution for more than one case. Locality on its own is total isolation. Non-locality on its own is total connectivity. No total realm is researchable. A researchable realm only exists if Non-locality and Locality are not total. Under Non-locality\Locality Linkage we get a universe where Non-locality is its common law; this is expressed by many Localities that are gathered by the common law, but can never be Non-local, as is the common law. Non-locality\Locality Linkage can be perceived as "The Tree of Knowledge", which is the one organic and ever complex (and therefore non-entropic) realm that enables one, and only one simple law (Non-locality), to be the common knowledge of many Local expressions of it (we show that Leibniz Chaitin Complexity [11] Challenge is the organic incompleteness of Non-locality\Locality Linkage).

[11] Cristian S. Calude Randomness and Complexity, From Leibniz to Chaitin,
Publisher: World Scientific Publishing Company, date: Oct 2007,
ISBN: 978-981-277-082-0 978-981-277-082-8
 
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Apathia said:
Will a person using your Organic Numbers to account for the different levels of "cardinality." necessarily be regarding people as more than just elements of the reckoning?

Yes, please read very carefully pages 6-7 of http://www.scribd.com/doc/17039028/OMDP after you understood pages 1-6.


Apathia said:
We return to what is needed is “Direct Perception,” prior to mathematical representations.
And there are people who get humanity, while they may not get your representation.

You do not have to intellectually know how to breath in order to breath, but if you have also an intellectual knowledge about breathing you can improve it.

Furthermore, we can avoid problems that may cause harm to our ability to breath.

Apathia, do you really think that nothing was changed along the 20th century, which is directly related to our own survival on this planet?

Do you really think that there are not enough evidences that the level our humanity is far behind our Logical \ Physical technological skills?

The bogus of the knowledge of Complexity can be found right at the foundations of the current body knowledge of the mathematical science (again, please look at the first part of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5010420&postcount=5782) and the result is devastating especially in our crucial times of deadly imbalance between Ethics and Logical reasoning (look out of your window and see Iran, Northern Korea, etc … , and then think about anti-matter bomb (some near future development based on Current Mathematics) at the hands of some small group of terrorists, etc …).

Apathia, the Amazon river starts by couple of drops. So is Math, it starts by very simple statements, but unlike the Amazon Mathematics is a deductive system and if there is a bogus at its foundations nobody will re-consider its foundations along the stream.

I expose this bogus and also show what is fundamentality needed in order to correct it.

I perfectly understand the response of jsfisher or The Man and I use their criticism in order to improve OM.

Jsfisher and The Man actually doing OM in their daily life, but they do not aware of it, and this is exactly why actual Direct Perception training is so important here.

In other words, we are in a crucial time that the luxury of breathing without knowing how to breathe, no longer exists. This graceful ignorance is obsolete and will make us obsolete if we will do nothing about it in the very near future ( http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5008114&postcount=5726 ).
 
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The bogus of the knowledge of Complexity can be found right at the foundations of the current body knowledge of the mathematical science (again, please look at the first part of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5010420&postcount=5782) and the result is devastating especially at our crucial times of deadly imbalance of Ethics with Logical reasoning (look out of your window and see Iran, Northern Korea, etc … , and then think about anti-matter bomb (some near future development based on Current Mathematics) at the hands of some small group of terrorists, etc …).

Waiter! Could I have Thousand Island dressing with this salad, please?
 
Let us translate it to OM.

Diversity is exactly the result of localities that are compared with each other by non-locality.

As a result we get a non-trivial complexity, which is fundamentally open and therefore incomplete (= as true as we can get).

It is clearly written in the abstract of http://www.scribd.com/doc/17504323/WZATRP8 :

An original observation of Zeno's Achilles\Tortoise Race Paradox is introduced. It leads to novel understanding of the foundations of mathematical science, especially by observing Non-locality and Locality as its fundamental building-blocks. Locality is precisely its own formula, thus this formula cannot be used as a solution for anything else but its own unique case. Non-locality is a formula that can be used as a solution for more than one case. Locality on its own is total isolation. Non-locality on its own is total connectivity. No total realm is researchable. A researchable realm only exists if Non-locality and Locality are not total. Under Non-locality\Locality Linkage we get a universe where Non-locality is its common law; this is expressed by many Localities that are gathered by the common law, but can never be Non-local, as is the common law. Non-locality\Locality Linkage can be perceived as "The Tree of Knowledge", which is the one organic and ever complex (and therefore non-entropic) realm that enables one, and only one simple law (Non-locality), to be the common knowledge of many Local expressions of it (we show that Leibniz Chaitin Complexity [11] Challenge is the organic incompleteness of Non-locality\Locality Linkage).

[11] Cristian S. Calude Randomness and Complexity, From Leibniz to Chaitin,
Publisher: World Scientific Publishing Company, date: Oct 2007,
ISBN: 978-981-277-082-0 978-981-277-082-8


Well looks like Doron has another favorite phrase to bandy about, "common law".


Yes, please read very carefully pages 6-7 of http://www.scribd.com/doc/17039028/OMDP after you understood pages 1-6.




You do not have to intellectually know how to breath in order to breath, but if you have also an intellectual knowledge about breathing you can improve it.

Furthermore, we can avoid problems that may cause harm to our ability to breath.

Apathia, do you really think that nothing was changed along the 20th century, which is directly related to our own survival on this planet?

Do you really think that there are not enough evidences that the level our humanity is far behind our Logical \ Physical technological skills?

The bogus of the knowledge of Complexity can be found right at the foundations of the current body knowledge of the mathematical science (again, please look at the first part of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5010420&postcount=5782) and the result is devastating especially at our crucial times of deadly imbalance of Ethics with Logical reasoning (look out of your window and see Iran, Northern Korea, etc … , and then think about anti-matter bomb (some near future development based on Current Mathematics) at the hands of some small group of terrorists, etc …).

Doron you still have not shown how you expect your OM to accomplish this other then to simply make people so ignorant that such “future development based on Current Mathematics” is beyond their understanding.


Apathia, the Amazon river starts by couple of drops. So is Math, it starts by very simple assertions, but unlike the Amazon Mathematics is a deductive system and if there is a bogus at its foundations nobody will re-consider its foundations along the stream.

I expose this bogus and also show what is fundamentality needed in order to correct it.

The only “bogus” you have shown Doron is your bogus understanding of “Current Mathematics”

I perfectly understand the response of jsfisher or The Man and I use their criticism in order to improve OM's papers.

Yet your “OM's papers” have not ‘improved’ as a result of those criticism, why is that?


Jsfisher and The Man actually doing OM in their daily life, but they do not aware of it, and this is exactly why actual Direct Perception training is so important here.

Please demonstrate specifically how anyone is “actually doing OM in their daily life” other then your typical bogus and baseless assertions that everything essentially results from “doing OM”.
 
non sequitur
No, it deals with the heart of forms (formalism), which is something that you get only on the bla bla bla … level without understand how this bla bla bla ... is possible, in the first place (you have no Direct Perception of Complexity).
 
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