The Heiwa Challenge

[Dave Rogers]

Dear Engineer/Architect.

1.I say that no structure on Earth can be crushed down flat on the ground by the top 10% of itself by gravity alone. Agree/disagree

2. I say that 4mm aluminium will not penetrate a 14'' x 14'' x 3/8'' well-braced steel box column. Agree/disagree.

...any additions Dave ?

Just add your qualifications, and that should do fine.

Dave

 

[bill smith]

Just add your qualifications, and that should do fine.

Dave

bill smith, concerned citizen.

 

[Dave Rogers]

bill smith, concerned citizen.

Brilliant choice! There's no other phrase that says "deranged, ignorant nutbar who wants to bore you rigid with something utterly unfounded that will make no sense to anyone with a vestige of knowledge relevant to the subject" better than the simple byline "concerned citizen".

Good luck with your mass e-mail campaign. Those always work well.

Dave

 

[BigAl]

Doesn't it? Take a floor that is supported by four columns in the corners! It looks like a kitchen table. It can support a certain dynamic load, DL, applied on the floor, i.e. the table top.

Say that you apply 2 DL suddenly - BANG - and tell me what happens!

I recall that the floor loading spec for WTC was 30 pounds/sq ft. At 40k sq ft/floor, that comes to about 600 tons, total, an order of magnitude less than what the upper floors weighed on 9/11.

It seems to me that the moment the upper part came down, even without dynamic load, the lower floor was doomed to collapse. The process would repeat for the whole tower.

Heiwa?

(Comments by real enigeers are welcome, also. )

 

[Heiwa]

It seems to me that the moment the upper part came down, even without dynamic load, the lower floor was doomed to collapse. The process would repeat for the whole tower.

Heiwa?

(Comments by real enigeers are welcome, also. )

Sorry, you have not understood. When the upper part came down, IT was doomed to collapse. You see, the upper part, IT, cannot one-way crush down the bigger part below.
If that were the case, dropping anything would destroy everything!! You and ME! So, luckily, small parts cannot destroy much and not BIG parts below.

Happy?

 

[BigAl]

Sorry, you have not understood. When the upper part came down, IT was doomed to collapse. You see, the upper part, IT, cannot one-way crush down the bigger part below.
If that were the case, dropping anything would destroy everything!! You and ME! So, luckily, small parts cannot destroy much and not BIG parts below.

Happy?

If a floor gets overloaded by much more than an order of magnitude across most of it's area, does it not collapse?

 

[Newtons Bit]

How can he "update" his paper to accommodate criticisms that destroy his lunatic thesis root-and-branch?

He would more or less shift gears.

 

[FineWine]

Dear Engineer/Architect.

1.I say that no structure on Earth can be crushed down flat on the ground by the top 10% of itself by gravity alone. Agree/disagree

2. I say that 4mm aluminium will not penetrate a 14'' x 14'' x 3/8'' well-braced steel box column. Agree/disagree.

...any additions Dave ?

Dear Aggressive Know-Nothing:

1. I say that the impacts of fully-fueled jet airliners broke perimeter and core columns in each of the twin towers, causing extensive fires. Those fires weakened structural steel, as shown by the inward bowing of external columns observable on all videos. The floor trusses eventually failed, and the the impact floors, along with the floors above them, gave way. Once these global collapses were initiated, nothing could possibly arrest them.

2. I, joined by every sane person in the world, say that 100 tons of aluminum moving at roughly 500 mph will easily break any steel column used in construction.


My additions:

You have humiliated yourself by fleeing from the obvious refutation of Heiwa's idiocy, but your goose has been cooked. The falling floors will always be the BIG PART. The single floors they crush in succession will always be the SMALL PART. All your ridiculous lies, all your squirming and tap dancing, all your craven avoidance of this FACT has only served to highlight the untenability of your mad position.

You are still trying to peddle the deranged nonsense invented by the no-planers. You are still swallowing the absurd crapola peddled by the lunatics Morgan Reynolds and Jim Fetzer, that softer substances can't damage harder substances.

THEY ARE WRONG, BILL. NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE THAT FACT.

 

[FineWine]

Sorry, you have not understood. When the upper part came down, IT was doomed to collapse. You see, the upper part, IT, cannot one-way crush down the bigger part below.
If that were the case, dropping anything would destroy everything!! You and ME! So, luckily, small parts cannot destroy much and not BIG parts below.

Happy?

You have been caught lying again. The collapsing floors, as you know, are the BIG PART; the single floors they crush in succession are the SMALL PART.

You are trapped--hopelessly refuted. You think that by repeating the same discredited nonsense over and over, you can salvage your absurd fantasy. Watch me make you run away again:

You are in a chair on the 97th floor. The thirteen floors above have collapsed and are heading your way. What magic saves you from being crushed? Their COMBINED mass is about to fall on top of you, Heiwa. No, the lower floor of that mass will not gently kiss your floor, while the upper floors float harmlessly in midair. Your floor was not built to absorb the impact of thirteen floors. It really wasn't, Heiwa. WHAT WILL STOP THOSE FALLING FLOORS FROM CRUSHING THE FLOOR YOU ARE ON?

 

[FineWine]

He would more or less shift gears.

But his core position is what Mackey would term an irreducible delusion. Whatever modifications he might make to blow smoke, he must always maintain that the combined mass of thirteen collapsing floors won't crush the single floor they fall onto. Stripped of his obfuscating verbiage, he is revealed to be adopting the no-planer position: they say that the plane hits, not specific external columns, but the whole building; Heiwa says that the collapsing part C hits, not the floor immediately below it, but, through some form of magic, the whole building. His paper is built around an insane assumption. His contention that dropping the top third of the building from two miles up can't do much damage is not something that can be tweaked to make it sound less mad.

 

[nicepants]

Sorry, you have not understood. When the upper part came down, IT was doomed to collapse. You see, the upper part, IT, cannot one-way crush down the bigger part below.
If that were the case, dropping anything would destroy everything!! You and ME! So, luckily, small parts cannot destroy much and not BIG parts below.

Can a "big part" destroy a "small part"?

 

[Gamolon]

Dear Engineer/Architect.

1.I say that no structure on Earth can be crushed down flat on the ground by the top 10% of itself by gravity alone. Agree/disagree

It wasn't crushed down flat. If that were the case, then why was debris spread far outside the actual footprint of the towers? The upper part of the collapsing tower, gaining the mass of each floor it met as it went down, ripped the connections, columns, floors, etc apart. That is why you see perimeter columns falling AWAY from the tower proper in videos.

2. I say that 4mm aluminium will not penetrate a 14'' x 14'' x 3/8'' well-braced steel box column. Agree/disagree.

...any additions Dave ?

Misleading. You must state that you think a JET cannot penetrate a wall of 14"x14" (comprised of 3/8" thick steel plate) perimeter columns spaced at 3'-4" on center and braced by 4" thick concrete floors behind them every 12' feet. A plane is not just 4mm thick of aluminum. I like how you have to try and minimize the actual objects to make your claim believable.

Not very truthful are you?

 

[bill smith]

It wasn't crushed down flat. If that were the case, then why was debris spread far outside the actual footprint of the towers? The upper part of the collapsing tower, gaining the mass of each floor it met as it went down, ripped the connections, columns, floors, etc apart. That is why you see perimeter columns falling AWAY from the tower proper in videos.



Misleading. You must state that you think a JET cannot penetrate a wall of 14"x14" (comprised of 3/8" thick steel plate) perimeter columns spaced at 3'-4" on center and braced by 4" thick concrete floors behind them every 12' feet. A plane is not just 4mm thick of aluminum. I like how you have to try and minimize the actual objects to make your claim believable.

Not very truthful are you?

This brainstorming thing is really productive sometimes.

 

[FineWine]

This brainstorming thing is really productive sometimes.

You wouldn't be familiar with the results of brainstorming or any other mental activity, Bill. Back to business. You claimed that you were going to watch Mackey's lecture explaining the physics of 9/11. As usual, you lied. You couldn't have bothered to watch, or you--even you!--would be unable to continue braying the no-planer idiocy about soft and hard substances. What do you suppose Mackey got wrong in his explanation of how the plane penetrated the building?

What's that, Bill? I can't hear you. Oh, you say you have to run?

Bye, Bill.

 

[FineWine]

Can a "big part" destroy a "small part"?

As the "big part" will always be the collapsing floors and the "small part" will always be the single floors they crush in succession, I have a hunch he'll ignore your question. This sustained beating has rendered him incapable of doing anything except mindlessly chanting his mad mantra. He has been exposed as totally as any fraud has ever been, and his lack of integrity prevents him from taking a backward step. Frankly, the spectacle is highly enjoyable.

 

[Gamolon]

This brainstorming thing is really productive sometimes.

It is!

You should try it sometime.

 

[Heiwa]

You have been caught lying again. The collapsing floors, as you know, are the BIG PART; the single floors they crush in succession are the SMALL PART.

You are trapped--hopelessly refuted. You think that by repeating the same discredited nonsense over and over, you can salvage your absurd fantasy. Watch me make you run away again:

You are in a chair on the 97th floor. The thirteen floors above have collapsed and are heading your way. What magic saves you from being crushed? Their COMBINED mass is about to fall on top of you, Heiwa. No, the lower floor of that mass will not gently kiss your floor, while the upper floors float harmlessly in midair. Your floor was not built to absorb the impact of thirteen floors. It really wasn't, Heiwa. WHAT WILL STOP THOSE FALLING FLOORS FROM CRUSHING THE FLOOR YOU ARE ON?

This is The Heiwa Challenge thread! See post #1! No lies. You are supposed to design a structure, e.g. with 110 floors, and then drop a part of it, say 13 floors (part C), on the remainder 97 floors (part A)! Clear.

You are not supposed to drop 13 floors on 1 floor! You are supposed to drop 13 floors (C) on all 97 floors (A).

And the 13 floors (part C) have not collapsed prior drop/impact. They are supposed to one-way crush down 97 floors (A) below. That's the Challenge!

You are not supposed to locate yourself between C and A at contact, where the action starts, e.g. that A damages C at impact. Pls, read post #1 about safety! You are supposed to stay on ground and report the result!

You see, A is fixed to ground. Quite solid, actually. You don't believe that little C, dropping from the sky a few metres, can destroy A? What about the ground?

The good news are that so far in The Heiwa Challenge all parts C produced have been destroyed by part A and ground in all attempts.

Pls produce a structure that self-destructs. Not words in cyber space!

 

[BigAl]

This is The Heiwa Challenge thread! See post #1! No lies. You are supposed to design a structure, e.g. with 110 floors, and then drop a part of it, say 13 floors (part C), on the remainder 97 floors (part A)! Clear.

You are not supposed to drop 13 floors on 1 floor! You are supposed to drop 13 floors (C) on all 97 floors (A).

And the 13 floors (part C) have not collapsed prior drop/impact. They are supposed to one-way crush down 97 floors (A) below. That's the Challenge!

Which explains why the Heiwa Challenge has nothing to do with the WTC towers and what happened to them on 9/11.

 

[Gamolon]

Which explains why the Heiwa Challenge as nothing to do with the WTC towers and what happened to them on 9/11.

Hmmmm...

I designed the following "structure" and somebody said it didn't fit the challenge.

I wonder why.



How about this model.

Let's take a 25lb weight used for weight lifting. The round weights with a hole in the middle that can be slipped onto a weight lifting bar. Lets get 6, 1" diameter wooden dowels and pound them into the ground around the perimeter of the weight mentioned above. Let's take a single 1" diameter wooden dowel and pound it into the ground in the center of the ring we just created.

Now let's slip one of the 25lb weights mentioned onto the center wooden dowel down to about an inch from the ground. We'll put one thumbtack (the kind with the plastic head on them, not the flat heads) in each of the perimeter wooden dowels right below the weight and put two thumbtacks, opposite one another on the center wooden dowel.

We'll build our tower up 40 feet high with a "floor" weight every foot.

We'll then created a separate section the same way, but only 1/10th the size, which would be 4 weights (or 100lbs). We will then position the 1/10th section above the 40 foot tower we created using a dowel to center it above.

We then drop the 1/10th section down the centering dowel from a height of 10 feet above.

Presto!

I beat the challenge!

 

[bill smith]

It is!

You should try it sometime.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4996986#post4996986