Amway TV ad

[Porkchopjim]

If you believe your odds of success as based on chance, then I'd suggest your chances of becoming a diamond are nil.

If you believe your odds are based on countless hours, thousands spent on useless tools and rallies, and hyperconsuming vitamins and other products to artificially boost your 'business' figures (not to mention set a good example for those below you) - then you'll have just as successful experience with Amway as millions of others have! There being millions of Diamonds, of course.

ETA –

. You apparently haven't read the article you mentioned - The Nutrilite Difference

Almost forgot. Sorry you didn't get a chance to pick out my IP address. I wouldn't expect a second chance if I were you. Nice try again, though.

 

[Tex2]

Every single time ... and I've done this a lot ... every single time I've challenged a "critic" to name an Amway diamond or above who is displaying a lifestyle that couldn't be achieved on their Amway income alone ... every single time the "critic" has named someone who is way past diamond level in achievement, and has often achieved that level and higher in multiple countries. ---- And you would be LYING for the umpteenth time, because every single time I see and can respond to the above lie, I do. Bruce Anderson was a Diamond, and his lifestyle was FAR above his Amway income. He was in the "Profiles" book, with pictures of a large home on the intercoastal waterway, a motorcoach, cars, airplane, boats, etc., and later admitted he was qualified only a year or two, then fell back to Emerald, and made at least twice as much from tools than Amway during most of his time. You are a LIAR, icerat/insider/ibofb. As most Diamonds, Emeralds, etc., do not go on to Founders level, it is FAR more logical they fell back rather than maintained the level of the pin they wear. Therefore, I expect Bruce's
situation is typical, not unusual.

Now, is it possible for a REAL Diamond to make the money to fund this lifestyle? Probably, but that shouldn't be the question. The REAL question is DO they use Amway profit for their lifestyles? The answer is a resounding NO.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I just don't understand why people would get involved with all of the information available out there about this "opportunity". Where there's smoke there is fire.

 

[Tex2]

Newton, your biggest challenge is trying to imagine the Amway business without the tool scam. You mix up the Amway business and the tool scam, and are unable and/or unwilling to consider how it would work without the tool scam.

 

[Skeptic]

If you believe your odds of success as based on chance, then I'd suggest your chances of becoming a diamond are nil.

It has nothing to do with chance. It has to do with how to spend one's time.

If you are good enough to become a diamond in Amway due to your salesmanship or entrepreneurial skills, you are one of the top 0.01% of the population in that respect.

But if you are that good of a businessman, or can become that good of a businessman -- whether you achieve this by chance, by hard work, by inborn talent, or a combination of all three -- then you would be MUCH better off using your entrepreneurial skills in just about any other business or job.

Why waste your talent, hard work, or luck in Amway for a low six-figure salary and bonus when the same amount of talent, hard work, or luck (or combination of all three) would give you a seven-figure salary outside Amway -- the top 0.01% in the USA make $3.6 million a year?

The same holds true, by the way, for every level of success income in amway vis-a-vis every level of success outside of amway. No matter how good or bad you are as a businessman, you are better off by a factor of 20, at least, if you use your business skills outside Amway instead of wasting them in Amway.

Amway is a sucker's bet.

 

[icerat]

Almost forgot. Sorry you didn't get a chance to pick out my IP address. I wouldn't expect a second chance if I were you. Nice try again, though.

My first response .... huh? My second response ... it's becoming clear that paranoia is a common thread amongst some of the more obsessive amway critics ....

 

[icerat]

It has nothing to do with chance. It has to do with how to spend one's time.

If you are good enough to become a diamond in Amway due to your salesmanship or entrepreneurial skills, you are one of the top 0.01% of the population in that respect.

Perhaps, but those skills are learned on the way.

But if you are that good of a businessman, or can become that good of a businessman -- whether you achieve this by chance, by hard work, by inborn talent, or a combination of all three -- then you would be MUCH better off using your entrepreneurial skills in just about any other business or job.

Umm, no, because when you start the journey you don't have them. That's one of the benefits of working with Amway, you learn these skills along the way, with low risk

Why waste your talent, hard work, or luck in Amway for a low six-figure salary and bonus when the same amount of talent, hard work, or luck (or combination of all three) would give you a seven-figure salary outside Amway -- the top 0.01% in the USA make $3.6 million a year?

(1)source please (2) I seriously doubt the top 0.01% make $3.6million from one income source.(3)that percentage includes Amway people.

Anyway, this source says the top 0.01% of US income earners in 2006 earned $10.1 million and over. Globally there are about 4 million renewed IBOs, of which no more than 10% are actually operating it as a business. .01% of that is 40. I know several of the 40 top Amway business owners and they earn significantly more than $10million per year. Some of them regularly earn more than that just from Amway, let alone other investments.

So it would appear that contrary to your claim, being in the top .01% of Amway business owners is more lucrative than "average". Heck, I remember reading stories about the 1974 Miami dolphins, the only team to go through and win the Super Bowl undefeated. Many of them went on to be highly successful businessmen. Yet in the article they were quoted as saying one was more successful and made more money than all the rest. Who was that? Amway Founders Crown Ambassador, Tim Foley.

Any person who has created significant income - and learned the skills along the way - diversifies and creates other income sources. It's no different with Amway. Some years back I recall one of Amway's top leaders saying their families entire lifestyle (mansions, yacht, private jet etc) was today entirely funded through investment accounts. Just recently another acquaintence of mine, another top Amway leader, revealed he owns "way more" than tens of millions of dollars of investment real estate.

Their ability to do that came through their journey, and success, in the Amway business.

The same holds true, by the way, for every level of success income in amway vis-a-vis every level of success outside of amway. No matter how good or bad you are as a businessman, you are better off by a factor of 20, at least, if you use your business skills outside Amway instead of wasting them in Amway.

You have no evidence at all to support that claim, my guess is you're just making it up. I have a number of friends who were highly successful in business - multi-millionaires in fact, who have sold their businesses to focus on Amway. A couple of them stopped building Amway for several year after they reached the Founders Emerald level - they said they already had a better lifestyle there than they did when in traditional business.

I realised a couple of years ago that I'd have been much better off focussing my skills on Amway rather than my other ventures, and have spent the last year or so getting rid of other ventures so I can focus on Amway, and that's what I'm now starting to do again - I just need to spend less time on boards like this

Skeptic, you either don't know much about Amway (well, it's clear you don't, so that's a given) or you don't know much about being an entrepreneur, or both.

Now, I agree on one thing, if you are a really good salesman and just interested in money now, then there are absolutely better options than Amway. If you're highly talented in one field, like an NBA class basketball player, then there are better options than Amway. But for most people, or at least those willing to work hard for several years, with little immediate return, I'm yet to see a better option. Feel free to show me one.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I have a number of friends who were highly successful in business - multi-millionaires in fact, who have sold their businesses to focus on Amway.

I call BS without proof.

Umm, no, because when you start the journey you don't have them. That's one of the benefits of working with Amway, you learn these skills along the way, with low risk

The same thing applies to ANY other business. Start one, learn the ropes, rinse and repeat. I don't know where you get the concept that the risk is so much lower in Amway. If you have no money all you have is your time anyway. Sure most businesses have more upfront costs than Amway but you have to start somewhere unless you are born rich. Work for someone else in the industry of your choice, learn the ropes and save up money, open your own shop and continue to learn. Millions of people do this every year and there are plenty of people making money outside of scamway. Most of them even manage to do it ethically.

The claim is constantly made that amway is the best opportunity. I have seen ZERO substantiation that it's even a good opportunity and plenty of figures that show it's one of the worst ways you could possibly spend your time.

So it would appear that contrary to your claim, being in the top .01% of Amway business owners is more lucrative than "average".

Please substantiate that the top 40 earners in Amway have income of more than $10M without tool scam money. Also this is only the top 40 of the CURRENT renewed IBO's which isn't good math as the turnover is quite high. These are the top out of EVERYONE who has ever become an IBO.

 

[Skeptic]

I have a number of friends who were highly successful in business - multi-millionaires in fact, who have sold their businesses to focus on Amway.

Riiiiiiiiight.

Sure you do.

 

[Almo]

I know several of the 40 top Amway business owners and they earn significantly more than $10million per year.

We never said you couldn't make money in Amway if you're at the top of the pyramid. Pyramid schemes are like that.

 

[Porkchopjim]

For those of you still struggling to give the Amway proponents the benefit of the doubt, and I know it's a struggle:

You may be picking up a pattern. It's consistent.


1. It's never the advocate, per se, who is making the business do what it is purported to do. However, they always seem to personally know others who are just blowing the lid off this thing. In the case of those advocates who are fairly new to the business, that 'other' is almost guaranteed to be benefiting from that advocate's continued participation in the scheme.

2. When asked what special benefits their product, especially dietary supplements, provides above and beyond what a much lower priced product offers, they trot out advertising disguised as science – complete with official looking reports and articles and everything – that offer such dubious conclusions as “this special ingredient may/might/shows promise in elevating/decreasing/enhancing/inhibiting some other substance/process which has previously been shown – by many of the same advertisers (excuse me, 'scientists') – to possibly be linked to (fill in the blank positive or negative). It's pretty much 'dietary mad-libs.'


Not quite a pattern yet, but still interesting: there never seems to be a particularly successful achiever who has reached the exalted position of 'free from financial worry' who isn't continually working the business. This is exclusively under the guise of 'helping others achieve what they have' because it's all about helping people, you know.

 

[NewtonTrino]

So I spent some time yesterday and re-read "Merchants of Deception" which is the ebook written by Eric Scheibeler. Honestly the book needs a good editing pass but the core points of his amway experience come across clearly. It's not a terribly long read and it's free so it might be of interest to those reading this thread. I'm sure Icerat has all kinds of reasons why nobody should ever read it. Of course it happened to a guy working with Dexter's system so it doesn't count as amway, right Icerat?

 

[icerat]

I call BS without proof.

And I call BS on your claims without proof. See, both can play that game.

But you can call BS all your like, it doesn't change reality.

The same thing applies to ANY other business. Start one, learn the ropes, rinse and repeat. I don't know where you get the concept that the risk is so much lower in Amway. If you have no money all you have is your time anyway. Sure most businesses have more upfront costs than Amway but you have to start somewhere unless you are born rich.

Many, probably most, business startups borrow money to get started. If I recall correctly for example, McDonald's franchisees typically get a rather large 7 year loan from McDonald's.

Work for someone else in the industry of your choice, learn the ropes and save up money, open your own shop and continue to learn. Millions of people do this every year and there are plenty of people making money outside of scamway. Most of them even manage to do it ethically.

Millions of people open shops every year? Really?

Most people who start Amway businesses have money - and they don't have to risk that money, or very little of it. It's a pretty ridiculous assertion that since they don't have to risk it, then it doesn't count.

The claim is constantly made that amway is the best opportunity. I have seen ZERO substantiation that it's even a good opportunity and plenty of figures that show it's one of the worst ways you could possibly spend your time.

Then why don't you publish the figures here? Nothing you've said even remotely supports that claim, not without using various made up (and false) assumptions.

Please substantiate that the top 40 earners in Amway have income of more than $10M without tool scam money. Also this is only the top 40 of the CURRENT renewed IBO's which isn't good math as the turnover is quite high. These are the top out of EVERYONE who has ever become an IBO.

Skeptic was the one who selected current McDonald's employees. Not "all" employees. In any case, global Amway renewal rate is something like 62% and those that are treating it like a business virtually all renew - so I *AM* looking at a sample that approaches everyone who actually operated an Amway *business*. Unlike skeptic, whose fantasy McDonald's employee income statistics undoubtedly ignored all past employees.

You of course want to include everyone, as if "wanting" to make money is good enough, and Amway's a scam because only the people who work hard earn money.

Secondly, I never said the earn 10million "without tool money". It's more than 10 million from all sorts of businesses and investments. But for arguments sake we could take someone like Jim Dornan. He's Founders Crown Ambassador in the United States (20+ qualifying legs) and Executive Diamond (EDC) and higher in a dozen other countries. As per the early stat, EDC average income some years back was $1.5million. An FCA has a business more than twice the size, and he has that income from a dozen other places as well. Do the math. Or try Tim Foley whom I mentioned earlier. He's FCA in the US, and at least Triple Diamond in South America. Or Foo Howe Kean - Crown Ambassador in three markets, Double Diamond in another, and lord knows what else in other countries.

 

[icerat]

So I spent some time yesterday and re-read "Merchants of Deception" which is the ebook written by Eric Scheibeler. Honestly the book needs a good editing pass but the core points of his amway experience come across clearly. It's not a terribly long read and it's free so it might be of interest to those reading this thread. I'm sure Icerat has all kinds of reasons why nobody should ever read it. Of course it happened to a guy working with Dexter's system so it doesn't count as amway, right Icerat?

I have no problem with people reading that - as long as they realise one thing - the book is almost entirely about his experience with his upline - an upline that has since been turfed out of Amway. The fact Scheibler had to apologise to Amway for making false statements to the press, and has some pretty clear outright lies in the book is also enlightening. Still, if I'd had his experience I wouldn't think very highly of the Amway business either.

Again though, for those who value rationality, let's look at some facts -

1. Every lawsuit by an IBO against Amway talking about experiences like Scheibler's originated from one Amway group and it's offshoots
2. Every significant online critic had their experience with the one Amway group and it's offshoots.
3. Every single anti-Amway book has been written by someone who had their experience with the one Amway group and it's offshoots.
4. More than 95% of online "complaints" about Amway, where they identify the group they were with - yup, had their experience with the one Amway group and it's offshoots
5. This group has never been a majority of Amway

A rational person must ask - if everyone in Amway is acting like these people describe, why does the majority of Amway (which exists outside this group and it's offshoots) generate pretty much nothing in the way of criticism?

I must add though, in my opinion those groups that did generate complaints have considerably cleaned up their acts in recent years - nearly all online Amway critics had their experience nearly a decade or more ago. There's been remarkably few new complaints despite the internet becoming more ubiquitious. From my monitoring, one group is still generating complaints about "stalking people" in book stores. and another has generated several complaints (primarily from me!) with regards pushing religious and political views at seminars, in disregard of Amway accreditation rules.

 

[icerat]

We never said you couldn't make money in Amway if you're at the top of the pyramid. Pyramid schemes are like that.

Please do tell - in which endeavour is it that the people that are the least successful earn the most?

 

[oggiesnr]

But for arguments sake we could take someone like Jim Dornan. He's Founders Crown Ambassador in the United States (20+ qualifying legs) and Executive Diamond (EDC) and higher in a dozen other countries. As per the early stat, EDC average income some years back was $1.5million. An FCA has a business more than twice the size, and he has that income from a dozen other places as well. Do the math. Or try Tim Foley whom I mentioned earlier. He's FCA in the US, and at least Triple Diamond in South America. Or Foo Howe Kean - Crown Ambassador in three markets, Double Diamond in another, and lord knows what else in other countries.

In other words they're at the top (or near top) of lots of tall pyramids, an opportunity that no longer exists in most countries. The Amway ad isn't selling to these guys, it's selling their success to people who can't hope to emulate it because all the big pyramid points are taken.

Steve

Steve

 

[Almo]

Please do tell - in which endeavour is it that the people that are the least successful earn the most?

Jobs that are heavily subsidized by some entity not based on performance.

Businesses where a powerful union has gone overboard protecting useless workers.

Some business where a monopolistic advantage has made them soft.

Just answering the question at face value. Not quite sure what you're getting at.

 

[icerat]

In other words they're at the top (or near top) of lots of tall pyramids, an opportunity that no longer exists in most countries. The Amway ad isn't selling to these guys, it's selling their success to people who can't hope to emulate it because all the big pyramid points are taken.

You display more and more ignorance with every post, Steve. Just this past few months two new "Crowns" have been recognized in the US, Amway's oldest market. Crown is only a step away from Crown Ambassador, and I guarantee you both of those "Crowns" will be recognized at that level with the next 24 months.

Indeed, my tracking of various internet statistics indicates business in the US is going VERY well for Amway. I hear similar things from folk on the ground there.

There's still plenty of room for people to grow large businesses, even in a 50yr old market.

 

[icerat]

Just answering the question at face value. Not quite sure what you're getting at.

My point is that of course the people who are most successful with Amway who make the most money. It's a bit of a bizarre "criticism" to point out that the people in Amway who make the most are the ones who have created the biggest businesses - ie created the most sales volume.

Why do you have a problem with that?

 

[Almo]

My point is that of course the people who are most successful with Amway who make the most money. It's a bit of a bizarre "criticism" to point out that the people in Amway who make the most are the ones who have created the biggest businesses - ie created the most sales volume.

Why do you have a problem with that?

The same reason I have a problem with Benie Madoff. MLM is fundamentally flawed.

There's still plenty of room for people to grow large businesses, even in a 50yr old market.

One born every minute, I guess.