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VFF Preliminary Kidney Detection Test

So a claim that started off with vision at a molecular level has now changed to vision at a large organ level... which is going to be nice and difficult to set up, control and arrange.

Just think, if only that crushed pill test hadn't failed so badly, we might be within a decade of some form of real test.
 
Giggywig said:
Four hours seems a bit long. Are the volunteers going to be given bathroom breaks or any way to amuse themselves?
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The proposed protocol is absurd for this reason alone. No-one is going the volunteer to sit like that for four hours, or even two. I'd say the maximum time that could be reasonably asked is ten minutes. The only one with any motivation to put up with any more inconvenience than that for the sake of such a test is the applicant. If ten minutes per volunteer isn't enough for VfF to "see" something as obvious as their number of kidneys then most of the claims she has made about her previous successes with her supposed ability can be instantly dismissed, as from her own accounts her observations were usually made in a far shorter time than that.

This is the suggested protocol I posted on the other thread. Obviously it has some of the same problems as VfF's (the possibility that one of the other volunteers may have only one kidney and not realise it, for example) but it's much more practical. I'm curious to know why VfF rejected it.

1. The volunteers all wear football jerseys or similiar with a different number on the back. The volunteers are monitored and filmed from the moment they put them on until the end of the test to ensure they have no opportunity to swap shirts.

2. VfF enters a screened off section of the room and sits facing a curtain, on the other side of which is a stool.

3. The first volunteer sits on the stool with their back to the curtain. When he/she is settled, the curtain is drawn back. VfF should not be able to see anything except the stool and its occupant from where she is sitting. The volunteer sits as still as he/she can manage whilst VfF examines him/her. VfF indicates when she has seen enough and the curtain is drawn. The volunteer then returns to the waiting area and the next volunteer takes their place.

4. Repeat for each volunteer. VfF is free to make whatever notes she wishes about the volunteers.

5. When all volunteers have been examined VfF decides which one she thinks has only one kidney and writes the appropriate number on a card which she seals inside an envelope. She then joins the volunteers, adjudicator and observers and places the envelope on a table in clear view.

6. The adjudicator calls for the volunteer with only one kidney to step forward. He/she produces the previously agreed documentary evidence which is examined by VfF and the adjudicator. When both are satisfied the volunteer turns around to show the number on his/her back. The adjudicator then opens VfF's envelope to see if the number she has written is the same.

Repeat as many times as necessary to beat the previously agreed odds of chance success.
 
Pixel42 said:
The proposed protocol is absurd for this reason alone. No-one is going the volunteer to sit like that for four hours, or even two. I'd say the maximum time that could be reasonably asked is ten minutes. The only one with any motivation to put up with any more inconvenience than that for the sake of such a test is the applicant.
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Depends what people are doing during the "sit". People will often sit for quite a while with a good book or a computer game. And I personally know two people who have had a kidney removed (one is my own mother, who had a diseased kidney removed many years ago, and the other is a friend who donated a kidney to her sick husband). Both of these have no symptoms or inconvenience from the operation, and could not be guessed to be missing a kidney from their behaviour.

However, it seems to me the checking for scars is hopeless. People can have abdominal scars for all sorts of reasons, and different surgeons favour different approaches. I'm surprised that so many people are born with one kidney, but it's certainly something to think about. Doing CT scans of the volunteers seems completely impractical - no medical service would subject people to ionising radiation for something so trivial. Would production of medical records do it? Easy enough to show that someone has had a kidney removed from their records, if there's no impersonation. Might be harder to show that it had never happened I suppose....

These things are never quite as simple as they first appear.

Rolfe.
 
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Rolfe said:
Depends what people are doing during the "sit". People will often sit for quite a while with a good book or a computer game.
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I was assuming the volunteers would have to sit still to allow VfF to do her stuff, and also to avoid potentially give-away body language. Even with some movement allowed, I suspect it would still be difficult to get enough volunteers. I know I wouldn't consider it worth my time and inconvenience ;)
 
I just want to scream "malarkey, malarkey!"

Malarkey is a substitute for a rule violation.
 
Why would anyone want to take a "missing kidney" test when they have already failed at this? I am referring specifically to the fact that VfF did not mention that Dr Carlson had a missing kidney when she had a "reading" with him at her local skeptic meeting.

Does "I knew it but I didnt mention it" REALLY mean you didnt fail?
Would that excuse cut it with any JREFers here?
 
VisionFromFeeling said:
I would imagine that the test can be paused if a volunteer (or claimant) absolutely has to take a break.
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I would recommend you have scheduled breaks every set period of time (say 20-30 minutes) when all volunteers would stand up and leave the room for 5 minutes, stretch their legs and if needed use the bathroom. That way you are not distracted by who needs to pee every 40 minutes.
 
Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you?

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you?

Rolfe.
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Since needing to pee often is a symptom of possible kidney problems, I agree with Rolfe - why would you? would be like stacking the deck. VFF might see a malfunctioning kidney as not there. The control group need to have functioning kidneys for it to be a fair test of her ability.
 
Rolfe said:
Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you?

Rolfe.
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From what I recall from other efforts by VFF, lack of volunteers was an issue. With a requirement to sit for 4 hours, volunteers might not be easy to come by. I'm just thinking making it an easier time for everybody involved will give the test itself greater chance of success (not the claimant mind you, but the test itself).
 
These quotes are from the VFF website

This is from the FACT readings

“For the first time ever I forced a time limit on myself to try to keep it within 15 minutes. If I recall it took me 18 minutes. I think the time limit might affect my results such that I don't have time to find all the information that I can find but I know that a test will probably be restricted to only a few ailments, giving me plenty of time.

The way I will be looking to detect that a kidney is missing will be easier since it already involves a specific area of the body and will be the same general area for all persons so I do not have to search across the body. Also I already know the feeling that corresponds to the absence of the feeling of a kidney. But the most important technique is that I will be able to compare with the opposite side to feel if the left and right side at where the kidneys should be feel vastly different.”
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These are taken straight from your own website why 4hrs for the readings? You say yourself you know where to look and its only one thing to look for? And why do u want to narrow down from 10 to 5 then check again , why are you so full of contradictions? You’ve been practicing as well does it take 24 mins to locate your own kidneys? You did a whole body reading in 15-18 mins why can't you find a kidney in 10 mins????????????????????


You talk the talk but can’t walk the walk..
 
Yep, bog standard Anita. Making a protocol which will never work. Do you guys think she's going to let up on the 4 hour requirement? I guarantee you she won't.

Then, when none of this happens, she'll blame it on the lack of volunteers.

How many times have we been here before?
 
Might I suggest that the requirement for hours of sitting could be meant to ensure that it will not be possible to recruit the necessary number of volunteers, and hence impossible to conduct the test? This would enable VFF to say: "I suggested a scientific protocol, but they did not want to go throught with it."

Hans

ETA: Oh, Skeen beat me to it, heheh.
 
LissaLysikan said:
Since needing to pee often is a symptom of possible kidney problems, I agree with Rolfe - why would you? would be like stacking the deck. VFF might see a malfunctioning kidney as not there. The control group need to have functioning kidneys for it to be a fair test of her ability.
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I think everyone needs to remember that having had a kidney removed does not mean that the person has any problem with the remaining kidney. Many people have donated a kidney to a sick relative, and others (such as my mother) have had a single unhealthy kidney removed, leaving them with a healthy kidney.

Everyone can manage perfectly normally on one kidney, and most people who physically have only one kidney are in that category. You literally Would. Not. Be. Able. To. Tell.

Do not include anyone with any actual disease of the urinogenital system (to include bladder or prostate problems) to ensure no confounding factors. This would not be that hard. Just find a healthy live kidney donor, and some other healthy people.

Your main problem is to prove that the people are as they say they are. After all, Randi could have persuaded someone with only one kidney to join the group and claim they had two, and/or someone with two kidneys to pretend they had only one. He could even ave arranged to falsify their medical records to weasel out on paying.
[/paranoid MDC claimant mode]

You have to think of everything.

Rolfe.
 
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