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Archeologly proves the Bible?

Yes, but the above were not making up a Holiday. They actually are celebrating a holiday about something that actually happened.
But the Jews actually believe it happened from myths and stories.
Why should we assume Passover was just made up.
Because there is no and in fact opposing evidence to what is claimed.
And why make up the unleavened bread part of it also.
Why make up the drinking of wine and crackers? Myth and tradition.
Common sense says it is more likely than not that Passover was not just made up and the Hebrews actually were exiles in Egypt.
No. "Common Sense" does not trump reality.
And that the Jews (even today) celebrate Passover for a good reason.
Yes, it is a celebration of Jewish culture and a mythical event kind of like Christmas or Easter.
 
Because there is no and in fact opposing evidence to what is claimed.
This is false, I"ve already pointed out in my Evidence thread currently in the History Forum that a Building Foundation similar to those used by the Hebrews in Judea was found in Egypt. Also the Roman/Jewish historian Josephus who was married in Alexandria Egypt had enough evidence to state the Hebrews and Moses were in Egypt.
 
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Unless you invent the story while having been taken as slave in exile and want to illustrate to others how sticking to your God and culture rather than being assimilated (which no doubt carries privileges for the individual members) will pay off at the end...

It's not a coincidence that the Exodus story was written during the Babylonian exile.

So that is your theory, that Jewish History believed by Isaiah, the historian Josephus, and Jesus was made up about a country hundreds of miles away (Egypt) to show sticking to your God and culture rather than being assimilated will pay off at the end...?

And what is your source for saying the Exodus story was written during the Babylonian exile. My Bible says Exodus was written at least 1220 BC or sooner, while the Babylonian exile occurred in the 6th century BC.
 
This is false, I"ve already pointed out in my Evidence thread currently in the History Forum that a Building Foundation similar to those used by the Hebrews in Judea were found in Egypt.


Yeah, because a similarity in structural engineering is almost unheard of and is therefor conclusive evidence for, well, something.

Also the Roman/Jewish historian Josephus who was married in Alexandria Egypt had enough evidence to state the Hebrews and Moses were in Egypt.


You have got to be kidding.
 
Seems odd that a people would make up a religious holiday to escaping from slavery from another country. If you're going to invent a holiday it seems you'd invent one where your people are great conquerors not slaves.

From Wiki on Passover:

Passover... is a Jewish and Samaritan holy day and festival commemorating the Hebrews' escape from enslavement in Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

Since we're just chewing the fat here, let me spin a little (ok, big) yarn. It seems that back about 2500 BCE or so, a bunch of primitive herdsmen in an area on the eastern Med decided to take up newfangled agriculture, noting that their friends and acquaintances in neighboring states seemed to do well that way. Just keeping up with the Sumerians, you might say. The trouble with this, as well as the glory, is that you don't have to keep pulling up stakes and chasing wild animals across the plains and hills. You can set a regular schedule, usually. Unfortunately, when you do that, others know where to find you, sometimes with intent to pillage, rape and burn, so they settled in cities with some defensive walls and such.

The trouble with that is that you need someone to organize things, to tell the farmers where their plots are, and when to go out and plant, and how to defend the walls. No, not everyone can be the landowner or a spearman on the walls, someone has to sow and reap, clean up the wounded and bury the dead. Classes were born, at least in this corner of the sand box.

That is also a problem. Because some people want to be spear-chuckers or wear the golden torqs or whatever, and many don't want to get their hands icky or sweat in the sun. Some don't want to push the stones to make the tax collector's fine, new house. Particularly when the tax collector is a *****. Revolutions seem to start pretty easily in these climates, and so it seems to have been in our land of milk and honey.

In 2200 BCE, the city of Ai was razed, but there is no sign of external siege, nor any known armies wandering around at the time. Jericho suffered the same in 1500 BCE, and Hazor in 1200 BCE. It seems that when the masters get a bit crazed with monumental works, the people of the East Med have little patience. Jews can be funny that way.

In 1200 BCE there were 25 cites in Canaan, holding perhaps 3-5 thousand people together. By 1000 BCE, there are 250 cities, with a total population of 45,000. No sign of any exterior assault or immigration, only interior rebellion and population growth once the big cities were (mostly) abandoned. Same basic pottery types, but with new decorations, and the houses are on a new common plan. Also, no kings. It took a few years to get around that, but they say David had the Look, you know?

So perhaps these Israelites, as they became known, had some sense of their journey - away from tyranny, into a new sort of egalitarianism. How does one establish that fact in perpetuity to later generations? Why, by inventing a story, and later on even writing it down - damn the libruls and their expensive ideas. You want the history preserved, but you want to make it a lesson on how to do things, hard won truths learned along the way. So you develop a script, drill it into some unruly kids heads, and set them to writing it all down. But what do you write? Certainly something entertaining, but full of wisdom, natch. The Great Jewish Novel.

On the north wall of Karnak, Seti I, father of Ramsses II, wrote about conquering the Shasu (actually, wrote about slashing them, like in college football), who lived in Midian, in roughly the Negev desert. They called themselves in their barbaric script, YHW (Yahoo - who knew?), and incidentally the name of their corporate god. So he was there, in Israel, along with Baal, Ellil, Asherah, El and the whole happy deitic group.

So how do you make a good, literary clean break with the past and inspire your people to carry on in the new way? You invent a new corporate religion. At least, that's how L. Ron did it, and how can you argue with success (so far)?

Inside the super-sekrit Iursidictional Council of new Religion for the masses Institute (in proto-Hebrew, "INRI", they hadn't gotten rid of the vowels, yet, that's next week):

Let's see. We decided last week to settle on one god, and lay the rest off, those old city patron gods have to go anyway. That'll shake the traditionalists up. What else? Well, I have a promising tale about the real beginning, that great Uncle Shimsam heard when he was traveling in Ugarit (Note to self: Don't forget to edit out all those other gods in there). We need to explain how it looks like were going to hell in a hand basket, but how it will all turn out OK in the end if they just have faith and keep the gerbil wheel turning. There's a neat story about a flood over in Ur (old hat to the Egyptians, they have floods all the time). We can dress that up some. Speaking of which, we need a heavy to inspire cohesion, you know? No one heavier than the Egyptians and all that Book of the Dead stuff. Ho ho, snigger. And a hero - um, call him Moe. That probably even means something in Egyptian, too. If we scrape enough of these Just-So stories together, we don't have to admit where we got any one of 'em. Just keep that mohel out of this, pul-ease. --What do you mean, overruled? --

Ahem. Anyway, blame all this stuff on Moe, he's got the fancy staff and the tablets and all. Might as well. If this balloon doesn't fly, I don't want them searching my temple for anything.

One more thought - tack all those damned rules in here too. Might as well, it will make them sorta official. And don't complain about writing cramps. You know this is only gonna get thicker - all these super-romances do. And just think, you'll hold the Copyright©.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Oops, wait - one thing I thought of. We gotta have some holidays. Let's see, release from Egypt sounds likely, particularly for slaves (yeah, I know - just don't tell them that). When do we want it? No, March 15th is booked; they're not fit to talk to until April. Feb's taken, Hallmark would sue something fierce. Ummmmm... What if we make it the, uhhhh,
Code:
Rosh Hashanah (who's he? Oh, nevermind - just follow) will 
fall on September M, where

   N + fraction = (floor(Y/100) - floor(Y/400) - 2) +
                765433/492480 x ((12 x G) mod 19) +
                (Y mod 4)/4 - (313 x Y + 89081)/98496
   M = N + postponement rule below

   1. If the day calculated above is a Sunday, Wednesday, 
      or Friday, Rosh Hashanah falls on the next day 
      (Monday, Thursday or Saturday, respectively).

   2. If the calculated day is a Monday, and if the 
      fraction is greater than or equal to 23269/25920 
      (0.898), and if (12 x G) mod 19 is greater than 11,
      Rosh Hashanah falls on the next day, a Tuesday.

   3. If it is a Tuesday, and if the fraction is greater
      than or equal to 1367/2160 (0.633), and if 
      (12 x G) mod 19 is greater than 6, Rosh Hashanah 
      falls two days later, on Thursday.[FONT=verdana]
[/FONT]
The previous Pesach (that's what I thought to call it) is 
    M days after March 21st.

Even better, we don't tell anyone how to figure it out. Yes, we can do that
in a top sekrit meeting.That ought to keep us in beer for a couple of
centuries, as long as I care about, anyway.

OK, then, let's see who needs to do what.....


Does that help?
 
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So that is your theory, that Jewish History believed by Isaiah, the historian Josephus, and Jesus was made up about a country hundreds of miles away (Egypt) to show sticking to your God and culture rather than being assimilated will pay off at the end...?

And what is your source for saying the Exodus story was written during the Babylonian exile. My Bible says Exodus was written at least 1220 BC or sooner, while the Babylonian exile occurred in the 6th century BC.


Your Bible actually has a date?

Anyway, it is pretty standard scholarship that the Exodus was written around the time of the exile.
And, yes, the morale of the story is to stick to your God and your culture.
My personal impression is that the time of the exile was a tempering by fire. Most of the exiles gave up Israel and assimilated and only the most devoted and fanatical clang enough to the old way to make it back. That also explain why the monotheism became so militant at that time.
 
My Bible says Exodus was written at least 1220 BC or sooner, while the Babylonian exile occurred in the 6th century BC.

I presume by "sooner" you mean earlier, right?

Considering that the earliest written Hebrew is an abcdery written on a rock dated to 900-1000 BCE, I sort of doubt that dating.
 
I have been justly corrected:boggled:. (Heads off for the Penitent-Post Corner to meditate on existential sins)

:p And yet DOC quoted the same long post to reply with a one-liner immediately after I (politely I hope) admonished you... not surprising since DOC doesn't listen to anyone other than himself or people with embellished credentials. ;)
 
This is false, I"ve already pointed out in my Evidence thread currently in the History Forum that a Building Foundation similar to those used by the Hebrews in Judea was found in Egypt.


It's not your thread, you've pointed out nothing and the trend continues.

I could point you to a building foundation in Melbourne that would be similar to those used by the Hebrews in Judea.

So?



Also the Roman/Jewish historian Josephus who was married in Alexandria Egypt had enough evidence to state the Hebrews and Moses were in Egypt.


I assume this evidence was in the lost library? Bummer.



So that is your theory, that Jewish History believed by Isaiah, the historian Josephus, and Jesus was made up about a country hundreds of miles away (Egypt) to show sticking to your God and culture rather than being assimilated will pay off at the end...?


Sounds reasonable. What does the archeology say?



And what is your source for saying the Exodus story was written during the Babylonian exile. My Bible says Exodus was written at least 1220 BC or sooner, while the Babylonian exile occurred in the 6th century BC.


Your bible is wrong. Or do you have some archeology to back you up?
 
Please don't quote a long post in it's entirety just to offer a sentence or three of commentary and a smilie?


I have been justly corrected:boggled:. (Heads off for the Penitent-Post Corner to meditate on existential sins)


:p And yet DOC quoted the same long post to reply with a one-liner immediately after I (politely I hope) admonished you... not surprising since DOC doesn't listen to anyone other than himself or people with embellished credentials. ;)



In fairness, it was a brilliant post, and well worth quoting a few times.

:o
 
Quote something, anything, enough times and someone is bound to be convinced of it's accuracy. :p
 
Quote something, anything, enough times and someone is bound to be convinced of it's accuracy. :p

Quote something, anything, enough times and someone is bound to be convinced of it's accuracy. :p

Quote something, anything, enough times and someone is bound to be convinced of it's accuracy. :p

Quote something, anything, enough times and someone is bound to be convinced of it's accuracy. :p

Very true.
 
and a Jehoash Tablet, a Widow’s Plea Ostracon, an inscribed wine-jug, a bulla seal, a stone oil-lamp, a quartz bowl, a royal Manasseh Seal, etc...

And a par-tridge in a pear tree...

-----

Yes, but the above were not making up a Holiday. They actually are celebrating a holiday about something that actually happened. Why should we assume Passover was just made up.

Because, unlike those other holidays listed, there exist absolutely no historical or archaeological corroboration for the events being celebrated.

And why make up the unleavened bread part of it also. Common sense says it is more likely than not that Passover was not just made up and the Hebrews actually were exiles in Egypt. And that the Jews (even today) celebrate Passover for a good reason.

Muslims today celebrate the ascension of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) into Heaven, but that doesn't mean it actually happened. However, according to your criteria the fact that people celebrate the event implies that there is somehow historical or archaeological evidence to support claiming it did. I have a funny feeling that you're not inclined to believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) actually ascended physically into Heaven, or that he spoke with the angel Gabriel.
 
So that is your theory, that Jewish History believed by Isaiah, the historian Josephus, and Jesus was made up about a country hundreds of miles away (Egypt) to show sticking to your God and culture rather than being assimilated will pay off at the end...?

And what is your source for saying the Exodus story was written during the Babylonian exile. My Bible says Exodus was written at least 1220 BC or sooner, while the Babylonian exile occurred in the 6th century BC.

I have read about half of "Antiquities of the Jews". It is a huge read, 2 2" thick spiral bound books. i print and bind them myself.

I also have the Septuagint; first four books of the Tanak. Josephus seems to have almost copied the Septuagint for "Antiquities".

My Bible says


Which edition? Exodus was written around the 6th cenutury. It is all based on myths from other local civilizations. There is no evidence the Exodus ever happened. There is no evidence for Moses as described in Exodus.
 
Well, I doubted my imaginary cat a whole five times so far, so obviously that makes it more true than your God ;)

The Bible is the only writing that makes that claim and none of the writer's claims can be verified. We don't know WHO wrote those Gospels. It could have been John, Paul, George and Ringo. (quote "Sister Act II")
 
and a Jehoash Tablet, a Widow’s Plea Ostracon, an inscribed wine-jug, a bulla seal, a stone oil-lamp, a quartz bowl, a royal Manasseh Seal, etc...

I missed the quartz bowl. Lead me to it, please.
Is it related to the chalice from the Last Supper which is in Valencia's beautiful cathedral?

edited to add: probably not.
I found this link which mentions the quartz bowl, etc.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...cheology+Middle+East&cd=9&hl=es&ct=clnk&gl=es
 
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That sounds like a good plot for a new Indiana Jones movie. :D
 
I missed the quartz bowl. Lead me to it, please.
Is it related to the chalice from the Last Supper which is in Valencia's beautiful cathedral?

I have a DVD "The Real Da Vinci Code". Tony Robinson set out to examine the locations in the Movie and also locations of "Holy" Objects" He went to Valencia and was shown that Chalice. One can only laugh at the claim that it is the "Cup of Jesus'. It is obviously a fake.

How many pieces of the "True Cross" are there? Enough to make about 100 Crosses. The Shroud of Turin was proved to be a forgery (Red faces in the Vatican). Somebody claims to have Jesus' baby teeth. Somebody has Jesus' FORESKIN.

No doubt somebody will find the skull of Jesus when he was a boy and then his skull when he was a man.

How much money is being made out of all these Religious objects!
 
Possibly, amb.
The quartz bowl is, alas, a fake:
The "Shishak" bowl (Oded Golan is accused). This is a quartz bowl that contained an inscription with the head of the army of Shishak. This military leader is known to have destroyed the ancient city of Megiddo. The indictment states that after Golan allegedly failed to sell the item to museums outside of Israel, the object became part of the investigation. Golan allegedly then destroyed the bowl and stopped trying to sell it.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...l+archeology+Meggido&cd=2&hl=es&ct=clnk&gl=es

Ah, well.
The actual cup in the Chalice in Valencia's cathedral, on the other hand, apparently came out of a Syrian workshop in the first century bc and is a decent example of dyed chalcedony.
The golden mounting, as eccles points out, is a later Islamic adornment modified by pious Spanish monarchs.
But the stone cup itself, until subsequent investigation shows otherwise, is apparently more or less 2,000 years old.
Which statement by no means implies it was employed in the last Supper.
Or was ever in Jerusalem.

To quote eccles:
How much money is being made out of all these Religious objects!
And from the movies made about them?
 
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I missed the quartz bowl. Lead me to it, please.
Is it related to the chalice from the Last Supper which is in Valencia's beautiful cathedral?

edited to add: probably not.
I found this link which mentions the quartz bowl, etc.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...cheology+Middle+East&cd=9&hl=es&ct=clnk&gl=es

Oh dear. Another joke book. I shall have to look though it for a laugh. I thought the Biblical Archaeology Review Forum was bad enough. I gave up on that in case so save my sanity.
 

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