Archeologly proves the Bible?

[Phase Inverter]

Here is the actual quote that apologists love to misuse. Notice the "does not go beyond the limit of science and justice" part?

Well, it seems that the phrase "world's greatest historian" was not what Ramsay actually said. However there are still those, such as DOC, that do regard the author of "Luke" as a great historian.

I recognize the historical value of any ancient text, I just have (potential) issue with referring to the gospel authors as historians (using the modern usage of the word) much like I have issue with referring to the gospels as eyewitness accounts.

 

[DOC]

Well, it seems that the phrase "world's greatest historian" was not what Ramsay actually said. However there are still those, such as DOC, that do regard the author of "Luke" as a great historian.

Which is why I find DOC's misquote of Ramsay exceedingly insulting to the man's career.
DOC has reduced an entire man's career down to an idiotic statement.

From Conservapedia's article on Sir William Mitchell Ramsay:

"Mitchell was raised as an atheist and as an archaeologist was convinced that the Bible was fraudulent. "He had spent years deliberately preparing himself for the announced task of heading an exploration expedition into Asia Minor and Palestine where he would [find] the evidence that the book was the product of ambitious monks, and not the book from heaven it claimed to be. He regarded the weakest spot in the whole New Testament to be the story of Paul's travels. These had never been thoroughly investigated by one on the spot. Equipped as no other man had been, he went to the home of the Bible. Here he spent fifteen years digging. Then in 1896 he published a large volume, Saint Paul, the Traveler and the Roman Citizen."[1]

Ramsay was struck by the accuracy of the book of Acts. In his quest to refute the Bible, he discovered many facts which confirmed its accuracy. He concluded that Luke’s account of the events and setting recorded in the narrative were exact even in the smallest detail.[2] Of Luke, he wrote: Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians.[3]

http://www.conservapedia.com/William_Mitchell_Ramsay

 

[Ladewig]

removed by author

 

[paximperium]

From Conservapedia's article on Sir William Mitchell Ramsay:

"Mitchell was raised as an atheist and as an archaeologist was convinced that the Bible was fraudulent. "He had spent years deliberately preparing himself for the announced task of heading an exploration expedition into Asia Minor and Palestine where he would [find] the evidence that the book was the product of ambitious monks, and not the book from heaven it claimed to be. He regarded the weakest spot in the whole New Testament to be the story of Paul's travels. These had never been thoroughly investigated by one on the spot. Equipped as no other man had been, he went to the home of the Bible. Here he spent fifteen years digging. Then in 1896 he published a large volume, Saint Paul, the Traveler and the Roman Citizen."[1]

Ramsay was struck by the accuracy of the book of Acts. In his quest to refute the Bible, he discovered many facts which confirmed its accuracy. He concluded that Luke’s account of the events and setting recorded in the narrative were exact even in the smallest detail.[2] Of Luke, he wrote: Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians.[3]

http://www.conservapedia.com/William_Mitchell_Ramsay

Should we trust conservapedia's interpretation without proper citation or Ramsay's ACTUAL words?

The more I have studied the narrative of the Acts, and the more I have learned year after year about Graeco-Roman society and thoughts and fashions, and organization in those provinces, the more I admire and the better I understand. I set out to look for truth on the borderland where Greece and Asia meet, and found it here [in the Book of Acts—KB]. You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian’s, and they stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment, provided always that the critic knows the subject and does not go beyond the limits of science and of justice.”
(1915, p. 89)
Ramsay, William (1915), The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1975 reprint).

Oh DOC, such a failure.
Oh yeah DOC, I still think that Ramsay is completely and utterly wrong when it comes to this silly statement. Modern archeology and history has shown him to be wrong.

 

[shadron]

From Conservapedia's article on Sir William Mitchell Ramsay:

"Mitchell was raised as an atheist and as an archaeologist was convinced that the Bible was fraudulent. "He had spent years deliberately preparing himself for the announced task of heading an exploration expedition into Asia Minor and Palestine where he would [find] the evidence that the book was the product of ambitious monks, and not the book from heaven it claimed to be. He regarded the weakest spot in the whole New Testament to be the story of Paul's travels. These had never been thoroughly investigated by one on the spot. Equipped as no other man had been, he went to the home of the Bible. Here he spent fifteen years digging. Then in 1896 he published a large volume, Saint Paul, the Traveler and the Roman Citizen."[1]

Ramsay was struck by the accuracy of the book of Acts. In his quest to refute the Bible, he discovered many facts which confirmed its accuracy. He concluded that Luke’s account of the events and setting recorded in the narrative were exact even in the smallest detail.[2] Of Luke, he wrote: Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians.[3]

http://www.conservapedia.com/William_Mitchell_Ramsay

Why do you quote all that mish-mash about Ramsay's supposed conversion? I can find no document that says he was an atheist and trying to tear down the Bible. The only references given by conservapedia for it is Josh McDowell (whom I wouldn't trust in a fourth grade religion class). It sounds too much like the stories of Augustine of Hippo, who was miraculously saved from a life of flamboyant libertinism by the prayers of his mother, St. Monica.

I don't doubt Sir Ramsay said what they quote about Luke, but I would also class it as factually dubious. I wonder what Sir Ramsay would say today, knowing the archaeology that 100 years additional makes available.

Perhaps I'll have to read some Ramsay if I can find it. I'm intrigued about how he measures the accuracy of a 1700 year old writing about travels, and how he might equate that with knowledge about something that happened 50 years (at best) before his author's time. Perhaps he doesn't; perhaps it is only DOC and the conservapedia that is drawing the conclusion that he's accurate about his travels with Paul, and therefore his gospel of Luke is accurate as well. I'd say it's unproven.

To answer an earlier question, that is the difference in a historian-diarist and a story-teller.

 

[paximperium]

Why do you quote all that mish-mash about Ramsay's supposed conversion? I can find no document that says he was an atheist and trying to tear down the Bible. The only references given by conservapedia for it is Josh McDowell (whom I wouldn't trust in a fourth grade religion class). It sounds too much like the stories of Augustine of Hippo, who was miraculously saved from a life of flamboyant libertinism by the prayers of his mother, St. Monica.

I don't doubt Sir Ramsay said what they quote about Luke, but I would also class it as factually dubious. I wonder what Sir Ramsay would say today, knowing the archaeology that 100 years additional makes available.

Perhaps I'll have to read some Ramsay if I can find it. I'm intrigued about how he measures the accuracy of a 1700 year old writing about travels, and how he might equate that with knowledge about something that happened 50 years (at best) before his author's time. Perhaps he doesn't; perhaps it is only DOC and the conservapedia that is drawing the conclusion that he's accurate about his travels with Paul, and therefore his gospel of Luke is accurate as well. I'd say it's unproven.

To answer an earlier question, that is the difference in a historian-diarist and a story-teller.

Here is the entire text online:
http://www.archive.org/details/bearingofrecentd00ramsuoft

 

[Phase Inverter]

Apparently this is indeed a direct quote from Ramsay:

"this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.”

Ramsay, William. The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1953. p. 222.​

In light of this information I make the following correction:

Well, it seems that the phrase "world's greatest historian" was not pretty much what Ramsay actually said. However Additionally, there are still those, such as DOC, that do agree with Ramsay and also regard the author of "Luke" as a great historian.​

There, now that it's been corrected, I can continue:

I recognize the historical value of any ancient text, I just have (potential) issue with referring to the gospel authors as historians (using the modern usage of the word) much like I have issue with referring to the gospels as eyewitness accounts.​

To answer an earlier question, that is the difference in a historian-diarist and a story-teller.

Are you pointing out this contrast between a historian-diarist and a story-teller in reference to Ramsay or "Luke?"

 

[shadron]

Are you pointing out this contrast between a historian-diarist and a story-teller in reference to Ramsay or "Luke?"

Luke, in reference to Acts and the Gospel, respectively.

 

[Akhenaten]

At least I brought some info in this thread about a famous Archaeologist (Sir William Mitchell Ramsay) who praised the Bible and Luke for their accuracy. What have you brought in about the topic? Zero

A pomegranate and an ossuary.

 

[DOC]

no proof of any slavery of Jewish or other semitic peoples in Egypt. Egypt, rather, conquered and held Canaan for a period in the 2nd millineum BCE.

Seems odd that a people would make up a religious holiday to escaping from slavery from another country. If you're going to invent a holiday it seems you'd invent one where your people are great conquerors not slaves.

From Wiki on Passover:

Passover... is a Jewish and Samaritan holy day and festival commemorating the Hebrews' escape from enslavement in Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

 

[amb]

How dare you all talk smack about famous archaeologist Sir William Mitchell Ramsay who I had never heard of before. DOC said he's a famous archaeologist so that means he's famous, even if none of us had heard of him or were familiar with his work.

And don't bother with his Wiki entry. You need to try a less biased site.

Less biased? Your not serious are you? A paper from a Republican source would need to be taken with a very large dose of salt.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

From Conservapedia's article on Sir William Mitchell Ramsay:
{snip}

Why did you quote the entire entry when I provided a link just 9 posts earlier?

 

[AdinDraco]

Seems odd that a people would make up a religious holiday to escaping from slavery from another country. If you're going to invent a holiday it seems you'd invent one where your people are great conquerors not slaves.

From Wiki on Passover:

Passover... is a Jewish and Samaritan holy day and festival commemorating the Hebrews' escape from enslavement in Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

How is a holiday proof of anything? Christmas is not evidence for Jesus (every single aspect of xmas pre-existed and/or was borrowed), Easter is not evidence for the resurrection (every aspect pre-existed and/or was borrowed). If the Greek Government announced a "Zeus" day to celebrate their mythic past, would that be evidence of anything? It's the same stupid argument that because the early christians were willing to die for their beliefs it's evidence of anything (islamic matyrs anyone?). Does Islam have holidays...is this evidence for their beliefs?

 

[Akhenaten]

Seems odd that a people would make up a religious holiday to escaping from slavery from another country. If you're going to invent a holiday it seems you'd invent one where your people are great conquerors not slaves.

Emancipation Day


Bahamas:

It commemorates the day of British slaves in 1834. It is a national holiday marking the day in the British Empire. The main celebration happens each year in Fox Hill Village near Nassau and includes a footrace.


Barbados:

On this Day, Barbadians march through the streets towards the statue of Bussa, the Freedom Fighter, in 1816, in order to gain freedom for the slaves of Barbados.


Bermuda:

Emancipation Day is a national holiday in Bermuda. On the island the holiday is known as the first day of Cupmatch, two day cricket competition, between the opposing St. George's and Somerset cricket clubs.


Jamaica:

On August 1st, 1833 the British parliament enacted the Slavery Abolition Act. After 175 years Jamaica celebrate the historic significance as a national holiday.


Puerto Rico:

A Commonwealth of Puerto Rico official holiday. Slavery Abolition Act in Puerto Rico in 1873 while the Island was still a colony of Spain.


Saint Kitts and Nevis:

Saint Kitts and Nevis celebrates the day in the 1830s.


Saint Lucia:

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 ended in the British Empire on August 1, 1834.


Saint Vincent and the Grenadines:

It commemorates the Slavery for 167 years.


Tonga:

Tonga, Emancipation Day is celebrated on June 4th.


Trinidad and Tobago:

Trinidad and Tobago was the first country in the world to declare a national holiday to commemorate the abolition of slavery.


Turks and Caicos Islands:

The Turks and Caicos Islands observe a national holiday on August 7.


US Virgin Islands:

US Virgin Islands commemorate the day when on 3 July 1848 the island's slaves were emancipated by Governor Peter von Scholten


Holiday Year

 

[Phase Inverter]

A pomegranate and an ossuary.

and a Jehoash Tablet, a Widow’s Plea Ostracon, an inscribed wine-jug, a bulla seal, a stone oil-lamp, a quartz bowl, a royal Manasseh Seal, etc...

 

[Maia]

Emancipation Day


Bahamas:

It commemorates the day of British slaves in 1834. It is a national holiday marking the day in the British Empire. The main celebration happens each year in Fox Hill Village near Nassau and includes a footrace.


Barbados:

On this Day, Barbadians march through the streets towards the statue of Bussa, the Freedom Fighter, in 1816, in order to gain freedom for the slaves of Barbados.


Bermuda:

Emancipation Day is a national holiday in Bermuda. On the island the holiday is known as the first day of Cupmatch, two day cricket competition, between the opposing St. George's and Somerset cricket clubs.


Jamaica:

On August 1st, 1833 the British parliament enacted the Slavery Abolition Act. After 175 years Jamaica celebrate the historic significance as a national holiday.


Puerto Rico:

A Commonwealth of Puerto Rico official holiday. Slavery Abolition Act in Puerto Rico in 1873 while the Island was still a colony of Spain.


Saint Kitts and Nevis:

Saint Kitts and Nevis celebrates the day in the 1830s.


Saint Lucia:

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 ended in the British Empire on August 1, 1834.


Saint Vincent and the Grenadines:

It commemorates the Slavery for 167 years.


Tonga:

Tonga, Emancipation Day is celebrated on June 4th.


Trinidad and Tobago:

Trinidad and Tobago was the first country in the world to declare a national holiday to commemorate the abolition of slavery.


Turks and Caicos Islands:

The Turks and Caicos Islands observe a national holiday on August 7.


US Virgin Islands:

US Virgin Islands commemorate the day when on 3 July 1848 the island's slaves were emancipated by Governor Peter von Scholten


Holiday Year

Wow. And you know the best part? They're all in great vacation spots! This must mean something very, very significant...

 

[Simon39759]

Seems odd that a people would make up a religious holiday to escaping from slavery from another country. If you're going to invent a holiday it seems you'd invent one where your people are great conquerors not slaves.

From Wiki on Passover:

Passover... is a Jewish and Samaritan holy day and festival commemorating the Hebrews' escape from enslavement in Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

Unless you invent the story while having been taken as slave in exile and want to illustrate to others how sticking to your God and culture rather than being assimilated (which no doubt carries privileges for the individual members) will pay off at the end...

It's not a coincidence that the Exodus story was written during the Babylonian exile.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Wow. And you know the best part? They're all in great vacation spots! This must mean something very, very significant...

Please don't quote a long post in it's entirety just to offer a sentence or three of commentary and a smilie?

 

[Maia]

I have been justly corrected. (Heads off for the Penitent-Post Corner to meditate on existential sins)

 

[DOC]

Seems odd that a people would make up a religious holiday to escaping from slavery from another country. If you're going to invent a holiday it seems you'd invent one where your people are great conquerors not slaves.

From Wiki on Passover:

Passover... is a Jewish and Samaritan holy day and festival commemorating the Hebrews' escape from enslavement in Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

Emancipation Day


Bahamas:

It commemorates the day of British slaves in 1834. It is a national holiday marking the day in the British Empire. The main celebration happens each year in Fox Hill Village near Nassau and includes a footrace.


Barbados:

On this Day, Barbadians march through the streets towards the statue of Bussa, the Freedom Fighter, in 1816, in order to gain freedom for the slaves of Barbados.


Bermuda:

Emancipation Day is a national holiday in Bermuda. On the island the holiday is known as the first day of Cupmatch, two day cricket competition, between the opposing St. George's and Somerset cricket clubs.


Jamaica:

On August 1st, 1833 the British parliament enacted the Slavery Abolition Act. After 175 years Jamaica celebrate the historic significance as a national holiday.


Puerto Rico:

A Commonwealth of Puerto Rico official holiday. Slavery Abolition Act in Puerto Rico in 1873 while the Island was still a colony of Spain.


Saint Kitts and Nevis:

Saint Kitts and Nevis celebrates the day in the 1830s.


Saint Lucia:

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 ended in the British Empire on August 1, 1834.


Saint Vincent and the Grenadines:

It commemorates the Slavery for 167 years.


Tonga:

Tonga, Emancipation Day is celebrated on June 4th.


Trinidad and Tobago:

Trinidad and Tobago was the first country in the world to declare a national holiday to commemorate the abolition of slavery.


Turks and Caicos Islands:

The Turks and Caicos Islands observe a national holiday on August 7.


US Virgin Islands:

US Virgin Islands commemorate the day when on 3 July 1848 the island's slaves were emancipated by Governor Peter von Scholten


Holiday Year

Yes, but the above were not making up a Holiday. They actually are celebrating a holiday about something that actually happened. Why should we assume Passover was just made up. And why make up the unleavened bread part of it also. Common sense says it is more likely than not that Passover was not just made up and the Hebrews actually were exiles in Egypt. And that the Jews (even today) celebrate Passover for a good reason.