Sane Republicans should leave the party now

[dudalb]

And all these town hall stunts are doing is making the Birthers look like a bunch of idiots. Bad Tactics.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Unless it turns out that Obama likes to put his cigarettes into Oval Office Non-Michelles.

 

[SezMe]

That's the only message you choose to hear. But any politician with sense is going to hear there are voters who are dissatisfied and passionate. Whatever the politicians might think of those voters, I guarantee you that they get that message, even if you choose to blind yourself.

Huh, that's exactly what I think is happening with you. These meetings have been disrupted. On purpose, with no good intent. Even if you choose to blind yourself to the fact.

You think piggy (and me, I presume) are exercising our confirmation bias. Do you see any chance that you are exercising your confirmation bias?

 

[Ziggurat]

You think piggy (and me, I presume) are exercising our confirmation bias. Do you see any chance that you are exercising your confirmation bias?

We all probably are. I don't presume to be immune to it, nor are these scenarios mutually exclusive.

 

[Piggy]

You keep saying this, and yet I saw on the video that discussion DID happen. Your description just does not comport with what I saw and heard.

Well, ok, then.

You see that at some points in the meeting people got to speak, so all's well. The shouting and disruptions are fine with you.

That's your definition of a civil meeting.

It's not mine.

 

[Piggy]

And all these town hall stunts are doing is making the Birthers look like a bunch of idiots. Bad Tactics.

What's amazing, though, is how the Democrats can't even seem to figure out how to make hay out of it.

Instead of pointing fingers at Republicans and talking about manufactured mobs, if they had any marketing savvy they'd leave the Republicans out of it and talk consistently about how the shouters are preventing other voters from hearing what their elected representatives have to say and asking their own questions.

People are sick of Congress turning every issue into a fight amongst themselves.

If the Dems had a lick of sense, they'd portray these mini-mobs as infringing on other voters' rights. That's how to tap into the majority's distaste for this kind of thing -- it's the same sort of emotion that people feel for folks who cut into lines or use the shoulder to move up in traffic. People hate that.

But typically, they're missing their opportunity.

 

[lomiller]

The only people I can think of who do anything resembling what’s happing now are the anti-globalization protestors. Most Democrats are critical of the anti-globalization protests, why is it Republicans are so intent on making excuses when it’s Conservatives trying to prevent anyone else from having a say?

 

[Ziggurat]

The only people I can think of who do anything resembling what’s happing now are the anti-globalization protestors. Most Democrats are critical of the anti-globalization protests, why is it Republicans are so intent on making excuses when it’s Conservatives trying to prevent anyone else from having a say?

Your comparison is not apt, to put it mildly. The anti-globalization protesters are noteworthy not because they shout a lot (a common trait among protesters of all stripes), but because they destroy other people's property, and actively attempt to deny others the right of movement. When these protesters start trying to block legislators from entering or leaving these town hall meetings, or start breaking windows, you'll have a point. But nobody is calling for that, and as far as I can tell, nobody is doing that.

 

[The Painter]

If the Dems had a lick of sense, they'd portray these mini-mobs as infringing on other voters' rights.

Wait, maybe they're not all Republicans, maybe they are Democrats too. Maybe even some Independents thrown is there too. Did you stop and think, just once, that maybe there is a real problem here. That most people don't trust or like a program shoved down there throat. Maybe people are smart enough to know that when a slick salesman says "you better act now because tomorrow is to late" you just walk away, because you're about to be fooled.

The Government can't even run the "Cash for Clunkers" program and you want me to believe they will run health care efficiently? Congress has done nothing but lie to the constituents. From TARP to Stimulus to GM to Fanny Mae and Freddy mac to the Banks, the list goes on

You want to see a mob? Look at this;

Minute men

Those Democrats really know how to "mob"

Here's what you call a mob. You know the ones Pelosi calls Nazis. PS He's a Democrat.

Man yells

Maybe the voters are sick and tired of being of being pissed on. Now they're pissed off.

 

[Whiplash]

I really do still continue to marvel that people actually think that the victory last fall was some kind of huge, massive beat down and ultimate rejection of the current Republican party, as a whole, forever.

Come on folks, is this just major wishful thinking? Is it hubris?

You had a sound victory, but it was far from a huge beatdown, and it's still very questionable as to whether it was more of a embracing of Democratic ideals, or an angry rejection of the current leaders at that time.

Reagan had a crushing victory in his second term. Democrat party still survived just fine. They didn't moderate at all, at least not that I could tell.

Clinton won fairly handily his first term. And two years later people gave congressional control to the Republicans.

It's strikes me as complete hubris the way some on the left are acting since the election of Obama and the retaking of the congress for the Democrats. It seems based in some kind of thinking that the Democrats are so perfect and awesome, that they will never again be able to be ousted.

This is nonsense. Bush was insanely unpopular. Obama represented a chance to make history. I think you guys need to take a deep breath and actually accomplish some things before you start writing obituaries.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Whiplash - you're pretty spot on with that exegesis IMHO.

I lived through two (now three?) "The GOP is Finished!" eras. First Goldwater absolutely killed the party after the stomping by LBJ. Yeah! That lasted one term. Then Nixon and Watergate. "Will the GOP Survive?" screamed the headlines. Again - the wake was hardly over when the Dems were out of the White House for 12 more years.

Parties, particularly the GOP reinvent themselves. Now they're being driven by the best organized and most able (politically - e.g. to get out the vote) factions on the hard right and Fundie side. They might be able to survive until the off-year elections under this reactionary banner, but come 2012, we'll see a vastly different face. This right-driven coalition, unless there is a total disaster in the economy, cannot take Congress or the White House. The old guard (where the serious money is) knows that. Right now, they're content to let the shock troops carry on, but I doubt that they'll be the driving force in 18 months, much less in three years.

 

[The Painter]

unless there is a total disaster in the economy,

HELLOOOOOO!!!!!

Oh yeah you don't live here. Let me tell you, the economy sucks. Do you think people come out to these meetings when the economy is good??? Think again.

 

[Piggy]

Wait, maybe they're not all Republicans, maybe they are Democrats too. Maybe even some Independents thrown is there too. Did you stop and think, just once, that maybe there is a real problem here. That most people don't trust or like a program shoved down there throat. Maybe people are smart enough to know that when a slick salesman says "you better act now because tomorrow is to late" you just walk away, because you're about to be fooled.

I'm not saying they're all Republicans. In fact, if you had read my posts with any care at all, you'd see that I object to the Democratic strategy of accusing Republicans of being behind the formation of these mini-mobs, because they're not.

The Republican strategy that I object to is the NRCC (and individual leaders) getting behind these guys and attempting to portray them as noble and good, and thereby encouraging more of this kind of thing during the August recess when we really need representatives to have a dialog with their constituents. That's a mistake, one in a long list of mistakes.

I'm not commenting at all on whether any of the many health care proposals is a good or bad idea.

I'm also not objecting to anyone publicly opposing any of these proposals, or voicing their opinion.

What I object to is the tactic, because it's counterproductive, and essentially anti-democratic. What we need right now is dialog and communication, and a clear, rational expression of legitimate objections.

Going into a town meeting and shouting "Liar!" and "Traitor!" and "No!" and "Boo!" doesn't achieve that.

And by siding with the people who use this tactic to merely disrupt public meetings, the GOP is adding to an already deep image problem, making the party look like the last refuge for cranks.

That is what I object to.

 

[Piggy]

Maybe the voters are sick and tired of being of being pissed on. Now they're pissed off.

Ok. Fine. If you're pissed off, you can either throw a tantrum like a toddler, or you can roll up your sleeves and get involved.

These people choose to throw tantrums.

They're being childish and they're throwing a wrench into things instead of doing anything that makes sense. And I don't care if they're Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green, Socialist, Anarchist, Nazi, or Whig.

Just saying "I'm angry" is no excuse for disrupting town halls.

We've got one month for representatives to go back to their district and talk with their constituents. These people, who claim to want to have a say, are making that impossible.

If they want to have influence, they'll knock off the shouting and actually participate.

 

[Piggy]

I really do still continue to marvel that people actually think that the victory last fall was some kind of huge, massive beat down and ultimate rejection of the current Republican party, as a whole, forever.

Obama's win isn't the problem facing the party.

It's how the GOP reacts to it.

Rather than rebuilding coalitions, it seems the leadership has chosen the road of ideological purity, which is a death sentence.

You cannot be a viable party in a country this large without compromise and coalitions.

The "base" is about 27% of the population. You do the math.

If the GOP leadership commits itself to that strategy, it's time for a new centrist-conservative party.

And now is a good time.

During economic stress, people get more conservative. If the right set of leaders were to bail out (I know, probably a pipe dream) and create a Conservative Party without the pitchforkers, it could work.

But if sane Republicans were to abandon the party now, there would be a huge pool of voters to pick up, and the Democrats and the fringe 3rd parties couldn't get them. In that case, the leaders might follow.

I don't think it'll happen. I wish it would. But you never know. History has a way of taking unexpected turns.

 

[The Painter]

What we need right now is dialog and communication, and a clear, rational expression of legitimate objections

.

Does that really work? The American people made it perfectly clear they opposed the stimulus bill, especially because of all the pork in it. Senators and House members ignored the people, and passed it anyway. Now we learn it did nothing but keep government functioning while the rest of the country flounders. People are not going to play nice if playing nice gets them nothing.

Overall, 56 percent of Americans oppose this $650 million pork provision; while only 33 percent favor it (11 percent are not sure).

Fifty-eight percent of American voters oppose using the "stimulus" bill to send $4.2 billion taxpayer dollars to community activist organizations

Sixty-eight of all American voters disagree with using the economic recovery bill to give tax rebates to illegal aliens

All these people ignored. My own Senator said "the American people really don't care." Wrong, they do care.

 

[fishbob]

I've learned not to misunderestimate the think-tank full of fail the Dems have at their disposal. The GOP looks likely to hit bottom approaching at .9c right now however...

No question that the Dems can easily snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Just this once, they would be smart not to.

As to the GOP - Ya think they will bounce or splatter?
Until they ditch the wingnuts, they are looking mighty splattery to me.

 

[SezMe]

HELLOOOOOO!!!!!

Oh yeah you don't live here. Let me tell you, the economy sucks. Do you think people come out to these meetings when the economy is good??? Think again.

HELLOOOOOO!!!!!

None of these shenanigans took place when Bush, et. al. proposed the $700B TARP program. Nor when Obama extended it. Or bailed out the car industry. Or as unemployment went through the roof.

Nope, they're taking place as health care reform moves to a resolution. Those who opposed such action have the money to astroturf this operation and are pulling out all the stops because meaningful health care reform will be campaign superstar.

 

[fishbob]

I think it depends a lot on what the GOP does with itself over the years. If all their dire predictions (or at least the predictions of the media elements that seem to speak for the GOP) turn out correct, then by 2012 the Obama administration could be seen as a failure, and the GOP prophets, as visionary.

But that's the risk. The predictions (socialism/communism, failed health system changes, crashed economy, terrorist attacks on US soil because of weakened security, etc) are very loud and very dire. And if they don't come to pass, you can bet the DEMs will be pointing that out very clearly, and the GOP will continue to lose ground.

Statistically, psychics fail on all their predictions and yet people still buy into their nonsense.

That is what I think the real risk is.

 

[Piggy]

Whiplash - you're pretty spot on with that exegesis IMHO.

I lived through two (now three?) "The GOP is Finished!" eras. First Goldwater absolutely killed the party after the stomping by LBJ. Yeah! That lasted one term. Then Nixon and Watergate. "Will the GOP Survive?" screamed the headlines. Again - the wake was hardly over when the Dems were out of the White House for 12 more years.

Parties, particularly the GOP reinvent themselves. Now they're being driven by the best organized and most able (politically - e.g. to get out the vote) factions on the hard right and Fundie side. They might be able to survive until the off-year elections under this reactionary banner, but come 2012, we'll see a vastly different face. This right-driven coalition, unless there is a total disaster in the economy, cannot take Congress or the White House. The old guard (where the serious money is) knows that. Right now, they're content to let the shock troops carry on, but I doubt that they'll be the driving force in 18 months, much less in three years.

We can hope.

But don't we get into a chicken-and-egg thing?

To me, it seems that the current problem is essentially that what's best for the party is suicide for the survivors currently in office, which is why we've seen the reversals on SoSo with nod turning to no for senators who'll be standing again, but confirmation votes from Bond, Gregg, and Martinez who don't face re-election.

Where we're at now, everyone who's staying, and presumably any incoming freshmen, are going to be beholden to Palinista constituencies.

That being the case, how is the party going to rebuild an effective coaltion if everyone's feet are held to the fire of ideological purity, no compromise across the aisle, a steady diet of tax cuts, no wiggle room for business stimulus, etc.?

It would be different if we didn't have the 24/7 news cycle and a chorus of Limbaugh- and Beck-style pundits all too ready to pounce on anything that sniffs of heresy. Back in the day, it was much easier to do your deals in the hotel restaurant and manage the press corps back on the hill, but now the waters are much more dangerous.

Who is going to stand up and repudiate the fringe, and survive to tell the tale?