Amway TV ad

[cyborg]

So if I said the Soviet Union would cease to exist in 5 minutes, it would make the news the same amount it did for Ronald Reagan?

No.

Your research is incomplete, especially when it comes to plant derived vitamins/minerals.

That doesn't mean anything to me.

No I'm not, I'm saying the AMWAY money stays in each IBO's hands instead of being shifted to the upline LCKs. The tool scam money goes away, as it should.

So far you're only served to convince me that the tool scam money is the lucrative part of the business - you have not convinced me that MLM is required to sell anything, regardless of the asserted complexity of understanding the differentation of the product in terms of quality.

No, it means on a macro level this is true, but on an micro (individual person and product) level it is not true.

The "macro" level is the aggregate of the "micro" level so what you're saying is nonsense.

No, they hold "home meetings" at their stores! LOL In fact, there are a number of formerly internet only companies that have decided a physical presence is necessary.

I don't see how the second sentence is connected to the first.

Now - please explain again why the examples I have given of the supposedly high quality goods that are not impossible to sell in the high street are not equivalent to the supposedly high quality goods that need to be sold through a MLM.

I think Amway does carry it, the active ingredient iboprofen: http://www.quixtar.com/search/default.aspx?Ntt=iboprofen&sid=8BDBC337E6BC

So what's special about the Amway iboprofen then?

You said this: "As was explored way back at the start of the thread the figures quoted in the Amway advert do not exactly set the world on fire." What did you mean?

I meant what I said - the figures are presented as being an inducement to join but they are not exactly brilliant for what they are doing.

NO. I'm saying the tool scam has held back the growth of the Amway business.

If 99% of the money is in tools at a value of a trillion dollars I don't really think growing the rest of the business is necessary.

This means more money in MY pocket rather than to advertisers. It also means it takes MORE than 2 minutes for the educational process, which often involves questions and answers, something best done in person. Nothing vague or an assertion about either one of these. Factual, specific.

So now you're saying it's glorified telesales.

And you still haven't been specific as to what is so complex about the product that requires such an exhaustive interview process before one is able to purchase it.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

It's a great way for the founders of Amway and some the IBOs at the top of the pyramid to get rich. There is legit money to be made in Amway in the real world.

Fixed your post.

 

[Tex2]

The first several years of IBOs got rich without the tool scam. People are getting rich in China and other locations around the world without the tool scam. People in the UK will probably get rich without the tool scam. Who cares what percentage it was? The tool scam took over. That's like saying what percentage of Germans were good people before WWII? It doesn't matter, because the Nazis took over. It's a TOOL scam. Not an AMWAY scam. You are brainwashed. Icerat is brainwashed. Sometimes it really is that simple.

 

[Tex2]

So if I said the Soviet Union would cease to exist in 5 minutes, it would make the news the same amount it did for Ronald Reagan? - No. ---- Thanks, you just proved my point.

Your research is incomplete, especially when it comes to plant derived vitamins/minerals. -That doesn't mean anything to me. ---- I know, you're ignorant and don't want to learn.

No I'm not, I'm saying the AMWAY money stays in each IBO's hands instead of being shifted to the upline LCKs. The tool scam money goes away, as it should. - So far you're only served to convince me that the tool scam money is the lucrative part of the business - you have not convinced me that MLM is required to sell anything, regardless of the asserted complexity of understanding the differentation of the product in terms of quality. ---- I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just laying the facts on the table. You have every right to make your own decision. The tool scam IS the lucrative part of the business, plus it results in 99% of the IBOs losing money. I never said MLM is REQUIRED to sell anything, I said it was the CHOSEN method Rich and Jay chose to enable others to own their own business, and it works best for certain products where education is necessary. But if the person, like you, doesn't want to learn, the IBO should move on to someone else.

The "macro" level is the aggregate of the "micro" level so what you're saying is nonsense. ---- Except we WORK on the micro level so what you're saying is nonsense.

I don't see how the second sentence is connected to the first. ----That's because you can handle only one idea at a time. LOL

Now - please explain again why the examples I have given of the supposedly high quality goods that are not impossible to sell in the high street are not equivalent to the supposedly high quality goods that need to be sold through a MLM. ---- You won't find anything similar to Double X vitamins in the marketplace, high street or low street.

So what's special about the Amway iboprofen then? ---- Ingredient wise, I don't think there's anything special. However, when I, one of my customers, any of my downline or any of their customers buys it, I get a bonus. Some of the items Amway carries are more for convenience than being "special", which makes it pretty special, as many people value convenience.

I meant what I said - the figures are presented as being an inducement to join but they are not exactly brilliant for what they are doing. ---- Then why do so many people join?

If 99% of the money is in tools at a value of a trillion dollars I don't really think growing the rest of the business is necessary. ---- That's how Bernie Madoff felt as well.

So now you're saying it's glorified telesales. ---- In person sales works better.

And you still haven't been specific as to what is so complex about the product that requires such an exhaustive interview process before one is able to purchase it. ---- I can't even get simple ideas regarding how the business works after dozens of pages of typing. Why do you think a product would so much easier, typing is free?

Fixed it again: It's a great way for the founders of Amway and the IBOs who work, over time, to get to the top of the pyramid to get rich. There is legit money to be made in Amway in the real world, minus the tool scam.

 

[Skeptic]

The first several years of IBOs got rich without the tool scam.

That's true for every pyramid scheme -- those who get in at the beginning can get rich by getting enough people below them. But that hardly means it's a good deal.

 

[icerat]

I guess the actual reality that the IBOs that make the earn the most from Amway are nowhere near "the beginning" or "the top" would have no bearing at all on your chosen belief, would it?

 

[icerat]

As for the rest of the argument it still seems like people are arguing the business works. It doesn't! This isn't theoretical-land here people.

uhh ... wow. Talk about delusional. It doesn't work? $8.2billion in sales. Tens of thousands of people earning full-time equivalent incomes and better, from a part-time business, and more every year. Even in the 50 year old market of the United States there are 500 to 1000 new platinum qualifiers every year.

You're right, it isn't "theoretical-land". It's reality.

You however, are in fairyland.

 

[icerat]

So far you're only served to convince me that the tool scam money is the lucrative part of the business - you have not convinced me that MLM is required to sell anything, regardless of the asserted complexity of understanding the differentation of the product in terms of quality.

For a "cyborg" you're pretty short on logic and long in logical fallacies.

Nobody said MLM was "required" to sell anything.

Clearly however, the MLM model works for Nutrition and Skin Care/Cosmetics.

Now - please explain again why the examples I have given of the supposedly high quality goods that are not impossible to sell in the high street are not equivalent to the supposedly high quality goods that need to be sold through a MLM.

Which products are you talking about? For nutritional products, go do the research. For skin care and cosmetics ... funnily enough I've just come from a meeting with the local agents for Europe's #2 best selling professional range of skin care treatment products. They want to market their range through direct sales/MLM.

I guess they know something you don't.

Warren Buffet owns and operates an MLM company
Unilever owns and operates an MLM company
Donald Trump just bought an MLM company and renamed it Trump Network

just to name a few.

But I'm sure you know better

So what's special about the Amway iboprofen then?

Amway doesn't make ibuprofen, but it's available through the network if you want it. You won't make any money marketing it though.

I meant what I said - the figures are presented as being an inducement to join but they are not exactly brilliant for what they are doing.

Please advise of other opportunites open to the average person where they could develop the equivalent of an inflation-linked investment of the order of $1million to $5million in less than a decade. (see What's an Amway Business worth?)

If 99% of the money is in tools at a value of a trillion dollars I don't really think growing the rest of the business is necessary.

Tex doesn't know what he's talking about re "tools", but that's another story altogether.

So now you're saying it's glorified telesales.

All business is based on sales.

And you still haven't been specific as to what is so complex about the product that requires such an exhaustive interview process before one is able to purchase it.

Huh? If you're in the US you can go purchase anything you want, right now -www.amway.com. Anywhere else, look up the phonebook for your local friendly Amway rep.

 

[NewtonTrino]

uhh ... wow. Talk about delusional. It doesn't work? $8.2billion in sales. Tens of thousands of people earning full-time equivalent incomes and better, from a part-time business, and more every year. Even in the 50 year old market of the United States there are 500 to 1000 new platinum qualifiers every year.

You're right, it isn't "theoretical-land". It's reality.

You however, are in fairyland.

The lottery, making hundreds of new millionaires every year! I still wouldn't recommend it as a business though

I also would ask how much profit these 500 to 1000 new platinum qualifiers are making. Slim to negative would be my guess based on my MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE being involved with hundreds of platinum level and above distributors that I sold software to.

 

[oggiesnr]

I also would ask how much profit these 500 to 1000 new platinum qualifiers are making. Slim to negative would be my guess based on my MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE being involved with hundreds of platinum level and above distributors that I sold software to.

Overall the figure is under 1%. It could possibly be a bit more if these are higher up the pyramid. Also depends how much of the stuff they're buying for personal consumption.

Steve

 

[icerat]

Overall the figure is under 1%. It could possibly be a bit more if these are higher up the pyramid. Also depends how much of the stuff they're buying for personal consumption.

Steve

Sigh ... do you folks know anything about how Amway operates? Platinums, by definition, are "the top of the pyramid".

NewtonTrino has admitted to having experience only within one group of the Amway world. I'm fascinated to hear he knows what all their incomes and expenses were, or at the very least profitability.

Several years ago, before Amway added a lot more money to the compensation plan, the average Amway income for a qualifying platinum in the US was over US$50,000/yr.

New platinums, again virtually by definition, would be significantly lower, so many are significantly higher. The range is also quite wide. One of the reasons Amway had problems with a large group that got kicked out a couple of years ago was that their strategy for building Amway businesses resulted in more people qualifying platinum, but at significantly lower income levels. I've no idea what strategies NT's "platinums" were working with. There's been tens of thousands of platinums in the US, so even experience with "hundreds" of them is a very small proportion. When those "hundreds" are associated just with the one group and it's offshoots, it's clearly not appropriate to extrapolate to other groups with different systems and strategies.

I'd also be interested in asking NT how long ago this involvement was?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Sigh ... do you folks know anything about how Amway operates? Platinums, by definition, are "the top of the pyramid".

NewtonTrino has admitted to having experience only within one group of the Amway world. I'm fascinated to hear he knows what all their incomes and expenses were, or at the very least profitability.

Several years ago, before Amway added a lot more money to the compensation plan, the average Amway income for a qualifying platinum in the US was over US$50,000/yr.

And so what was the average PROFIT? $50k a year even as pure profit split between 2 people is a pathetic income anyway. Anyway I could care less about income, profit is the only thing that matters. So even though platinums are technically at the top of their mini-pyramid it still seems like a pretty crap business.

New platinums, again virtually by definition, would be significantly lower, so many are significantly higher. The range is also quite wide. One of the reasons Amway had problems with a large group that got kicked out a couple of years ago was that their strategy for building Amway businesses resulted in more people qualifying platinum, but at significantly lower income levels. I've no idea what strategies NT's "platinums" were working with. There's been tens of thousands of platinums in the US, so even experience with "hundreds" of them is a very small proportion. When those "hundreds" are associated just with the one group and it's offshoots, it's clearly not appropriate to extrapolate to other groups with different systems and strategies.

I'd also be interested in asking NT how long ago this involvement was?

Spin, spin, spin! My direct involvement with my Amway related business ended over 10 years ago. My dad continued that business for quite a while afterwards (I sold him my share when I moved to the west coast). He's also still active building Amway after 30 years and I just spent a week with him last month (took him on a cruise to Alaska). Either way I've been talking with him about the business for many many years. I grew up around all of the people in the business which is one of the things that allowed me to sell software into their groups.

Bottom line, you have NO IDEA what the average profit for a platinum is. I would love you to find me ONE platinum level distributor that is willing to come onto this board and talk business numbers with us. That's my challenge to you, find someone willing to reveal what their business looks like. I'm assuming this sample will be biased towards someone doing great, but that would be interesting as well. You won't find one though because the income claims while correct are very unreflective of actual profit. Prove me otherwise scamboy.

 

[Porkchopjim]

What you could do is train independent salespeople to explain it's benefits to consumers on a 1-1 basis or in small groups, and reward them for their efficacy.

That kind of approach might even make you the #1 nutritional supplement brand in the world.

Translation: Getting to #1 - defined by dollar sales, not by product moved - gets explained to consumers (Amway Business Owners) as one of the better 'point value' products per dollar spent and is an easy way to get the reward of their 'rebate' and hopefully a cut on the vitamins that downline buys...if you can get one.

Buying your own overpriced vitamins in order to artificially inflate your 'business volume' is not bona-fide real market demand.

Plus, everyone knows Herbalife vitamins are better because Beckham plays for that team.

 

[cyborg]

Thanks, you just proved my point.

No I didn't.

But if the person, like you, doesn't want to learn, the IBO should move on to someone else.

I believe I have learned that - by your own words - the MLM is an unnecessary overhead that adds no value to the sales proposition.

Except we WORK on the micro level so what you're saying is nonsense.

That does not follow.

That's because you can handle only one idea at a time. LOL

No, it's because the second sentence bears no relation to the first.

You won't find anything similar to Double X vitamins in the marketplace, high street or low street.

Again, that response does not answer the question.

Ingredient wise, I don't think there's anything special. However, when I, one of my customers, any of my downline or any of their customers buys it, I get a bonus. Some of the items Amway carries are more for convenience than being "special", which makes it pretty special, as many people value convenience.

More expensive, inefficient distribution = better, more convenient.

Gotcha.

Then why do so many people join?

Presumably for the same reasons so many people buy useless vitamins.

Argument ad populam carries little weight here.

That's how Bernie Madoff felt as well.

Bernie Madoff was running a Ponzi scheme - not selling items of dubious value to members of a cult.

In person sales works better.

I'll interpret that as an agreement - it's glorified telesales.

I can't even get simple ideas regarding how the business works after dozens of pages of typing.

I'm willing to presume this is because you're bad at explaining things.

Why do you think a product would so much easier, typing is free?

That sentence makes no sense.

Fixed it again: It's a great way for the founders of Amway and the IBOs who work, over time, to get to the top of the pyramid to get rich. There is legit money to be made in Amway in the real world, minus the tool scam.

So we return to the dubious benefits of attempting to get to the top of the pyramid scheme - I believe that's been covered in detail.

 

[cyborg]

Nobody said MLM was "required" to sell anything.

Then it's an unnecessary overhead.

I guess they know something you don't.

That getting people to work for ridiculously low costs is a sound business proposition but a lousy deal for the worker?

No, I know that.

Please advise of other opportunites open to the average person where they could develop the equivalent of an inflation-linked investment of the order of $1million to $5million in less than a decade. (see What's an Amway Business worth?)

I believe this has been covered as well - the numbers do not work. NewtonTrino has convered that quite well.

Huh?

You'll have to take that up with Tex.

 

[icerat]

And so what was the average PROFIT? $50k a year even as pure profit split between 2 people is a pathetic income anyway. Anyway I could care less about income, profit is the only thing that matters. So even though platinums are technically at the top of their mini-pyramid it still seems like a pretty crap business.

Platinum businesses are typically run part-time by one person, not two, though a partner may contribute in terms of hours put in it's normally insignificant. There's also plenty of completely single platinums.

What's your options for the average person to add $50k/yr to their income on 10-20hrs work a week?

I grew up around all of the people in the business which is one of the things that allowed me to sell software into their groups.

And they all showed you their P&Ls?

Bottom line, you have NO IDEA what the average profit for a platinum is.

I'm making no claims about the average profit for a platinum, you are. Bottom line is YOU have no idea. You're just assuming.

I would love you to find me ONE platinum level distributor that is willing to come onto this board and talk business numbers with us.

For what purpose? So you can call them liars too? Heck, audited KPMG statements presented in a court of law have been challenged as potentially fraudulent on this thread. There is nothing that will satisfy you.

The only thing that can be truly established from this thread is that I'm stupid enough to engage you in debate.

Prove me otherwise scamboy.

Ever heard of Rule 12? Attack the argument, not the arguer.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

I guess they know something you don't.

Warren Buffet owns and operates an MLM company
Unilever owns and operates an MLM company
Donald Trump just bought an MLM company and renamed it Trump Network

just to name a few.

But I'm sure you know better

Yes, they own the company therefore they are at the top of the pyramid., they didn't buy in as an IBO re-distributor.

 

[icerat]

Yes, they own the company therefore they are at the top of the pyramid., they didn't buy in as an IBO re-distributor.

nice dodge. It was in response to a claim it was a poor business model for marketing of products.

This of course requires willfully ignoring the fact the model is used and endorsed by highly successful business people and mutlinationals, and unequestionably IS highly successful, resulting in brands like Nutrilite, Avon, Artistry and others being at or near the top of their brand categories.

I can also point you to plenty of successful company owners who have elected to become IBOs, starting "at the bottom" where everyone else did - including Amway founders Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel, who started "at the bottom" with Nutrilite.

 

[icerat]

Translation: Getting to #1 - defined by dollar sales, not by product moved - gets explained to consumers (Amway Business Owners) as one of the better 'point value' products per dollar spent and is an easy way to get the reward of their 'rebate' and hopefully a cut on the vitamins that downline buys...if you can get one.

Buying your own overpriced vitamins in order to artificially inflate your 'business volume' is not bona-fide real market demand.

Plus, everyone knows Herbalife vitamins are better because Beckham plays for that team.

I normally ignore PCJ, he's a known troll, but I thought I'd address some more disinformation he's spreading here. He claims Nutrilite is #1 only because their flagship Double X product is quite expensive, thus driving up the dollar sales.

What he completely ignores, or to be charitable, is ignorant of, is that Nutrilite is #1 throughout the world, and has been for at least 7 years. For most of that time the Double X product was not available outside North America, so it's total $$ contribution was minor. Even in North America, Nutrilite's top selling product is not Double X, it's Daily .... the product which, as was easily shown earlier, is cheaper than the CostCo product PCJ was claiming was a better buy ... and that was at full retail Amway price vs CostCo members price.

It's amazing to me how often the more persistent Amway critics, like PCJ, simply make stuff up and lie. What's sad is I often see their lies repeated elsewhere on the net by people who unfortunately accept their claims at face value, such as earlier in this thread when someone cited some outright false claims by anti-Amway zealot JoeCool. Just today on another forum I was dealing with another anti-Amway zealot, David Brear, who was telling the world that Amway lost a lawsuit brought by P&G and agreed to pay them millions. The truth? Amway was dismissed from the case, and everywhere else P&G tried to pursue Amway, the court threw it out. He lied.

It seems to me that we may have a case of dishonest people projecting their dishonesty on to others.

 

[Porkchopjim]

I normally ignore PCJ, he's a known troll, ...

Don't flatter yourself too much, Insider. I didn't come here for you. I was afraid (and proven correct) that Tex was out bothering people again. Come to find out this place is doubly infested.

He claims Nutrilite is #1 only because their flagship Double X product is quite expensive, thus driving up the dollar sales.

While I may use Double X as a generic example of overpriced Amway vitamins, it is my full position that all the vitamins are overpriced.

What he completely ignores, or to be charitable, is ignorant of, is that Nutrilite is #1 throughout the world, and has been for at least 7 years.

It has been overpriced for much longer than that, but it's good they get recognition however you can.

For most of that time the Double X product was not available outside North America, so it's total $$ contribution was minor. Even in North America, Nutrilite's top selling product is not Double X, it's Daily .... the product which, as was easily shown earlier, is cheaper than the CostCo product PCJ was claiming was a better buy ... and that was at full retail Amway price vs CostCo members price.

Substitute 'Double X' with any overpriced Nutrilite product. If it were based on volume and not price - Nutrilite would not be number one. It is immaterial which overpriced pill pack you pull from the Nutrilite bag.

It's amazing to me how often the more persistent Amway critics, like PCJ, simply make stuff up and lie.

I did lie. I made up the price for the Costco vitamins. When I actually did waste my time looking all that up, naturally I found that the Kirkland line was substantially cheaper - and met quality control standards the Amway can't or doesn't choose to - but that part's not made up.

So while on one hand you pretend that Nutrilite's cheapest product is the one that propelled them to number one (...who's heard of Flinstone chewables? ...who's heard of Nutrilite before now?)...

...on the other hand you dedicate an entire page on your site of deception trying to justify the excessive price of Nutrilite products because 'natural' vitamin C is better than artificial vitamin C (any proof for that? Right, dumb question)...and alfalfa is expensive. Sure is! We pay about $4.00 a bail delivered! That MORE than justifies $80 vitamins.


So, seems you like to make excuses and continue to spin in whichever direction your unethical position takes you...and ignore why both the FTC and Amway have explicit rules requiring sales to non-IBOs.

It seems to me that we may have a case of dishonest people projecting their dishonesty on to others.

It's hard to hang around Amway and the likes of you without SOME of that 'valuable training' rubbing off on us.

So while Tex tries to slay the tool-dragon by getting kicked off every forum on the internet (one at a time, of course), I am comfortable that you have been equally effective in changing anyone's mind about Amway.

You are cult retention, that's all.