Amway TV ad

[Tex2]

In order to make it perfectly plain for you: nutritional supplements are essentially a scam in and of themselves marketed to the public at large despite any demonstration of efficacy. Now if you have an issue with this you should remember that this is a skeptics board and not an Amway board and that I for one don't really care what your opinion of nutritional products is. ---- Did you know that up until a few years ago, the AMA didn't support taking a multivitamin, and now they do? Do you realize several generations have come on the scene since Nutrilite started, and they would have missed a huge part of their life having optimal nutrition. Being a skeptic doesn't mean you have to be stupid, it's okay to look at the facts and make an informed decision. Really. Try it sometime. However, I really don't care what your uninformed opinion of nutritional products is, and you won't be around as long to argue your case. LOL

So selling Amway on the basis of "higher quality" useless items will not wash with me and nor has it done so with anyone else. A fact that you seem to be unable to process. ---- As I said, if you're not willing to examine the facts and learn, you will have a hard time with Amway. Your loss. NEXT!

 

[Tex2]

Well I wouldn't be willing to succeed in the arms trade or illegal drug trade either. ---- Good, neither would I. Amway doesn't carry either one of these lines of products, either. LOL

Is "lack of morals" a required quality? Is that a quality you possess? ---- Just because I have a different opinion about nutritional products makes me immoral? Is the AMA now immoral, because they now promote taking multivitamins? Are you sure you don't participate in the illegal drug trade?

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited to remove incivility.

Yes - but there is no presented coherence between these concepts. ---- Sure there is, he said the method is more important than the product.

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited to remove incivility.

Please remember to be civil and don't use personal attacks.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[Tex2]

Is quality relevant or not?
Does market demand trump quality?
How is a good or service suited to MLM? Is is simply market demand or quality?
Why is a MLM relevant at all?

I'm not seeing a consistent message here.

It all depends on whether you are talking over the short or long term. The answers are obvious.

 

[icerat]

In order to make it perfectly plain for you: nutritional supplements are essentially a scam in and of themselves marketed to the public at large despite any demonstration of efficacy.

In general I agree, however what you think of when you say "nutritional supplements" is a world away from what Nutrilite does, which is why I suggested you do some research.

Now if you have an issue with this you should remember that this is a skeptics board and not an Amway board and that I for one don't really care what your opinion of nutritional products is.

I didn't ask you to care what I thought. I asked you to do some research. If you did then you'd find your first statement is mostly false, with regards Nutrilite, and where it has elements of truth it has more to do with FDA regulations than science.

 

[cyborg]

Did you know that up until a few years ago, the AMA didn't support taking a multivitamin, and now they do?

And the NHS has homeopathic practices. I don't really care who said it - just why it was said.

As I said, if you're not willing to examine the facts and learn, you will have a hard time with Amway.

I don't see any facts that support the notion that a multivitamin has any benefit to anyone who is able to eat a balanced diet.

I will just have to live with having a hard time not being a part of an organisation which mediocre profits 99% of which you say should not exist ethically.

 

[icerat]

Is quality relevant or not?
Does market demand trump quality?
How is a good or service suited to MLM? Is is simply market demand or quality?
Why is a MLM relevant at all?

I'm not seeing a consistent message here.

That's because you're willfully closing your eyes (or perhaps brain) to make it inconsistent.

Quality and market demand are not independent. You know that, so why are you implying they are?

There's lots of reasons why some products are or are not suited to the MLM model. Low margin commodities, for example, are not well suited to the model. I'm not a fan of, for example, standard telephony services through MLM. The margins are relatively to start with, but if you do succeed in achieving market penetration, existing large players will undercut you, and thus either make you less competitive or force you to drop pricing, dropping profitability and field income.

The ideal product is one with higher margins and that cannot easily be marketed through traditional mechanisms. Imagine if you will, (all hypothetical of course), a food supplement that differed singificantly from traditional vitamin supplements in philosophy and manufacture. Imagine it was developed scientifically and had scientific support for it's efficacy, but generally cost more. You couldn't just stick it on the shelf, people wouldn't buy it because it was more expensive than the normal stuff and they wouldn't know the difference. You couldn't explain it's benefits in a 2 minute commercial, particularly not within FDA regulations.

What you could do is train independent salespeople to explain it's benefits to consumers on a 1-1 basis or in small groups, and reward them for their efficacy.

That kind of approach might even make you the #1 nutritional supplement brand in the world.

 

[icerat]

I don't see any facts that support the notion that a multivitamin has any benefit to anyone who is able to eat a balanced diet.

Just ignoring potential other benefits, what about people who don't eat a balanced diet?

Any idea what proportion of the population that is?

I will just have to live with having a hard time not being a part of an organisation which mediocre profits 99% of which you say should not exist ethically.

huh?

 

[cyborg]

Quality and market demand are not independent. You know that, so why are you implying they are?

Well yes they are actually.

High quality does not entail high demand - that means they are independent.

There's lots of reasons why some products are or are not suited to the MLM model. Low margin commodities, for example, are not well suited to the model. I'm not a fan of, for example, standard telephony services through MLM. The margins are relatively to start with, but if you do succeed in achieving market penetration, existing large players will undercut you, and thus either make you less competitive or force you to drop pricing, dropping profitability and field income.

Right - there's no particular value in the layers. Which is kinda the main point of criticism a lot of people have here.

You couldn't just stick it on the shelf, people wouldn't buy it because it was more expensive than the normal stuff and they wouldn't know the difference.

Right - so in other words: High Quality != High Demand.

You couldn't explain it's benefits in a 2 minute commercial, particularly not within FDA regulations.

Ok... new product needs partiuclar marketing campaign to establish it...

That kind of approach might even make you the #1 nutritional supplement brand in the world.

... so why is the MLM still required once this is the case? The whole point of brands is that yes, one can indeed shove Nurofen with generic paracetamol on a shelf and expect Nurofen to shift inspite of it being the same product.

 

[cyborg]

Just ignoring potential other benefits, what about people who don't eat a balanced diet?

They should eat a balanced diet first.

huh?

As was explored way back at the start of the thread the figures quoted in the Amway advert do not exactly set the world on fire.

Tex says 99% of that shouldn't exist. I'm not entirely sure how that's supposed to be a convincing business proposition.

 

[Tex2]

And the NHS has homeopathic practices. I don't really care who said it - just why it was said. ---- You don't think who said it infers anything regarding why they said it?

I don't see any facts that support the notion that a multivitamin has any benefit to anyone who is able to eat a balanced diet. ---- The AMA did literally DECADES of research, and you don't think they changed their recommendations based on ANY facts? You need to do some research, unless you are afraid you will no longer be able to be "skeptical" (ignorant, with no desire to learn).

I will just have to live with having a hard time not being a part of an organisation which mediocre profits 99% of which you say should not exist ethically. ---- As I have recommended many times in the past, it is FAR better to stay out until the tool scam is cleaned up, which has occurred in the UK, and let the adults take care of things until it is "safe" for you to join.

 

[Tex2]

They should eat a balanced diet first. ---- People also shouldn't drink and drive, jaywalk, become obese, etc., etc., etc.

High quality does not entail high demand - that means they are independent. ---- BS. It also infers low quality infers low demand. Walmart? There are market SEGMENTS, some individuals value some high quality products, and are willing to pay for them, and others aren't. A different category may mean two individuals would flip-flop.

Right - there's no particular value in the layers. Which is kinda the main point of criticism a lot of people have here. ---- $8.2 BILLION dollars last year, with about 1/3 of it paid back, would indicate you are wrong, DESPITE the tool scam. Do you have more than several BILLION dollars to show otherwise?

Right - so in other words: High Quality != High Demand. ---- No, high quality = education necessary to make buying decision.

... so why is the MLM still required once this is the case? The whole point of brands is that yes, one can indeed shove Nurofen with generic paracetamol on a shelf and expect Nurofen to shift inspite of it being the same product. ---- Because the founders wanted a business opportunity AND the product still has to be sold via education to new customers.

As was explored way back at the start of the thread the figures quoted in the Amway advert do not exactly set the world on fire. ---- That's because you don't understand MLM and think the brand new IBO who hasn't done much work should be a millionaire. That's why I'm more than a little skeptical of your "logic."

Tex says 99% of that shouldn't exist. I'm not entirely sure how that's supposed to be a convincing business proposition. ---- WRONG. The $8.2 billion/year is Amway ONLY, the tool scam is not part of that number. My point is the $8.2 billion, and then some, is being redirected to the LCKs via the tool scam. Without the tool scam, I believe Amway would be 10-100 times bigger.

 

[Almo]

The ideal product is one with higher margins and that cannot easily be marketed through traditional mechanisms. Imagine if you will, (all hypothetical of course), a food supplement that differed singificantly from traditional vitamin supplements in philosophy and manufacture. Imagine it was developed scientifically and had scientific support for it's efficacy, but generally cost more. You couldn't just stick it on the shelf, people wouldn't buy it because it was more expensive than the normal stuff and they wouldn't know the difference. You couldn't explain it's benefits in a 2 minute commercial, particularly not within FDA regulations.

"Differ in philosophy?" Either it works, or it doesn't. But that doesn't even matter: homeopathy sells from shelves without MLM, and it's completely useless AND expensive.

The bolded part smaks of CT. I know you're not a CT nut icerat, but saying you might not be able to describe why a product is good in 2 minutes due to FDA regs is... odd. They manage to advertise prescription drugs up here in Canada despite only being able to say one of A) its name B) what it does. It's much more lax in the US.

 

[cyborg]

You don't think who said it infers anything regarding why they said it?

Nope.

The AMA did literally DECADES of research, and you don't think they changed their recommendations based on ANY facts?

Sure.

You need to do some research,

My research says that nutritional supplements don't help healthy individuals and are not preferable to getting a balanced diet - since it is not simply a matter of getting a block of vitamins.

As I have recommended many times in the past, it is FAR better to stay out until the tool scam is cleaned up, which has occurred in the UK, and let the adults take care of things until it is "safe" for you to join.

Right... but then once the tool scam is gone you're saying the money is too.

People also shouldn't drink and drive, jaywalk, become obese, etc., etc., etc.

No they shouldn't.

BS. It also infers low quality infers low demand. Walmart? There are market SEGMENTS, some individuals value some high quality products, and are willing to pay for them, and others aren't. A different category may mean two individuals would flip-flop.

Er so again:

High quality can mean high demand.
High quality can mean low demand.
Low quality can mean high demand.
Low quality can mean low demand.

And all this would mean that quality doesn't say anything about demand.

No, high quality = education necessary to make buying decision.

Why isn't that necessary for Apple's products? I don't see Apple holding educational seminars on the virtues of iPhones vs the rest of the market.

Because the founders wanted a business opportunity AND the product still has to be sold via education to new customers.

That's a reply but not an answer: if the argument is that a product cannot be sold on the virtue of quality without sufficient marketing to establish the brand then once the brand is established then one cannot argue that the same continual level of marketing is required.

In other words why is Nurofen not a MLM product?

hat's because you don't understand MLM and think the brand new IBO who hasn't done much work should be a millionaire.

I would like you to quote me where I said or implied anything even remotely like this.

Without the tool scam, I believe Amway would be 10-100 times bigger.

So now you're saying the tool scam is worth nearly a trillion dollars a year?

 

[Tex2]

The major reasons Amway wants the IBOs to do the bulk of the advertising, especially when it comes to the education, is because the business was set up that way in order to pay out bonuses to IBOs instead of advertisers, and it takes more than minute or two for the educational process, which is much better done in person.

 

[cyborg]

The major reasons Amway wants the IBOs to do the bulk of the advertising, especially when it comes to the education, is because the business was set up that way in order to pay out bonuses to IBOs instead of advertisers, and it takes more than minute or two for the educational process, which is much better done in person.

So no good reason then other than a vauge assertion that a two minute educational session is required in order to properly market the product.

 

[Tex2]

You don't think who said it infers anything regarding why they said it? - Nope. ---- So if I said the Soviet Union would cease to exist in 5 minutes, it would make the news the same amount it did for Ronald Reagan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv13ZnkpWos Incredible!

My research says that nutritional supplements don't help healthy individuals and are not preferable to getting a balanced diet - since it is not simply a matter of getting a block of vitamins. ---- Your research is incomplete, especially when it comes to plant derived vitamins/minerals.

Right... but then once the tool scam is gone you're saying the money is too. ---- No I'm not, I'm saying the AMWAY money stays in each IBO's hands instead of being shifted to the upline LCKs. The tool scam money goes away, as it should.

Er so again:

High quality can mean high demand.
High quality can mean low demand.
Low quality can mean high demand.
Low quality can mean low demand.

And all this would mean that quality doesn't say anything about demand. ---- No, it means on a macro level this is true, but on an micro (individual person and product) level it is not true.

Why isn't that necessary for Apple's products? I don't see Apple holding educational seminars on the virtues of iPhones vs the rest of the market. ---- No, they hold "home meetings" at their stores! LOL In fact, there are a number of formerly internet only companies that have decided a physical presence is necessary.

That's a reply but not an answer: if the argument is that a product cannot be sold on the virtue of quality without sufficient marketing to establish the brand then once the brand is established then one cannot argue that the same continual level of marketing is required.

In other words why is Nurofen not a MLM product? ---- I think Amway does carry it, the active ingredient iboprofen: http://www.quixtar.com/search/default.aspx?Ntt=iboprofen&sid=8BDBC337E6BC


I would like you to quote me where I said or implied anything even remotely like this. ---- You said this: "As was explored way back at the start of the thread the figures quoted in the Amway advert do not exactly set the world on fire." What did you mean?

So now you're saying the tool scam is worth nearly a trillion dollars a year? ---- NO. I'm saying the tool scam has held back the growth of the Amway business.

 

[Tex2]

So no good reason then other than a vauge assertion that a two minute educational session is required in order to properly market the product. ----Not even close. I said, "The major reasons Amway wants the IBOs to do the bulk of the advertising, especially when it comes to the education, is because the business was set up that way in order to pay out bonuses to IBOs instead of advertisers, and it takes more than minute or two for the educational process, which is much better done in person." This means more money in MY pocket rather than to advertisers. It also means it takes MORE than 2 minutes for the educational process, which often involves questions and answers, something best done in person. Nothing vague or an assertion about either one of these. Factual, specific.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Tex, PLEASE USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION. Your posts are unreadable!

As for the rest of the argument it still seems like people are arguing the business works. It doesn't! This isn't theoretical-land here people. It's a great way for the founders of Amway and the tool scam artists to get rich. There isn't legit money to be made in Amway in the real world.

 

[Tex2]

Newton, PLEASE USE THE LOGIC FUNCTION. Your posts are unreadable!

As for the rest of the argument it still seems like people are arguing the business works. It does! This isn't theoretical-land here people. It's a great way for the founders of Amway and the IBOs to get rich. There is legit money to be made in Amway in the real world.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Find me an IBO that got rich without the tool scam.

Now what percentage of all Amway distributors is that?

It's a SCAM. You are brainwashed. Icerat is brainwashed. Sometimes it really is that simple.