Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[joobz]

Do you think slavery would have ended sooner if Christ never came. Yes, No, or his coming had no effect on the ending of slavery?

No effect at all.
Christianity was used to keep Monarchies in rule for centuries. The entire christian philosphy of King and kingdom catered to this. THe idea that people of one station were born into thier rolls. THis was fully supported by religious theology of the time (christian theology).

But I do not fault christianity for this. If Christianity didn't exist, it would have been some other religion.

The only advantage that christianity did was to create a intellectual elite in their monestaries taht preserved knowledge. This isn't a requirement for religions. This helped foster the bringing on the enlightment and the concept of natural philosophy and natural law. In the end, It was the diests who had a much greater impact in creating impact in ending slavery.

 

[DOC]

IF you can back up that feeling with evidence (perhaps a quote from jesus), I would be happy to admit error.

1)Love your neighbor

2)Love your enemy

3)"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

4)"Do to others as you would have them do unto you." Luke 6:31

The above sayings of Jesus are some of the reasons I have a feeling Jesus did not condone the type of slavery that was not in the best interest of the slaves. I say this because as I have already shown many slaves (at that time) were actually better off being slaves than they would have been if they were poor and free.

 

[DOC]

Do you think slavery would have ended sooner if Christ never came. Yes, No, or his coming had no effect on the ending of slavery?

Sooner. As the 3rd most influential person in the world (obviously no where near as important as Muhammad or Issaac Newton but nevertheless) his endorsement of slavery would have been persuasive to many.

No effect at all.
Christianity was used to keep Monarchies in rule for centuries. The entire christian philosphy of King and kingdom catered to this. THe idea that people of one station were born into thier rolls. THis was fully supported by religious theology of the time (christian theology).

Well I have to disagree with both of you. First of all to Lothian, Jesus did not endorse slavery. He might not have spoke specifically against it for reasons I have mentioned in some of these posts:

2752, 2705, 2696, 2490, 2501, 2505, 2509, 2513, 2422, 1947, 1889, 1878, 1793, 1775, 1811, 1802, 1795, and 1100.

but he did not endorse it.

And according to this site, William Wiberforce, author of the book "Practical Christianity", one of the century's most widely read devotional works, and also the Christian Quakers, played a very large role in Britain anti slavery campaign.

From the article: The Anti-Slavery Campaign in Britain by Marjie Bloy, Ph. D.

"In 1833 Wilberforce's efforts were finally rewarded when the Abolition of Slavery Act was passed. Wilberforce, on his death-bed, was informed of the passing of the Act in the nick of time. The main terms of the Act were:

* all slaves under the age of six were to be freed immediately
* slaves over the age of six were to remain as part slave and part free for a further four years. In that time they would have to be paid a wage for the work they did in the quarter of the week when they were "free"
* the government was to provide £20 million in compensation to the slave-owners who had lost their "property."

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/antislavery.html

So the downfall of slavery in the West owes a lot to Christianity.

 

[Hokulele]

Yeah, it only took 1800 years.


Way to be effective, Jesus!

 

[Lothian]

Well I have to disagree with both of you. First of all to Lothian, Jesus did not endorse slavery.

The old testament is full of instructions as to how to sell, circumcise and punish slaves. As you know Jesus endorsed all the old laws. Similarly Timothy, Titus and Peter in the new testament compel slaves to serve their masters.

William Wiberforce, author of the book "Practical Christianity", one of the century's most widely read devotional works, and also the Christian Quakers, played a very large role in Britain anti slavery campaign.

I admire him tremendously. To stand up to the Church was brave thing to do. That he could cause Christians to abandon Jesus's teachings and embrace humanist values is a tremendous achievement.

 

[joobz]

1)Love your neighbor

2)Love your enemy

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." matthew 10:34-39

3)"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

"That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. But one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. "
-luke 12:47

4)"Do to others as you would have them do unto you." Luke 6:31

This is you simply repeating your point 1.

The above sayings of Jesus are some of the reasons I have a feeling Jesus did not condone the type of slavery that was not in the best interest of the slaves. I say this because as I have already shown many slaves (at that time) were actually better off being slaves than they would have been if they were poor and free.

Well then it's really strange that jesus would say it's ok to beat a slave then, isn't it? Especially if you claim he didn't condone it. That would be like a person who opposed drug use describe which bong he prefered to use.

 

[zooterkin]

So the downfall of slavery in the West owes a lot to Christianity.

Tell me, what religion were the men running the slave trade for the 400 or so years before it was abolished?

 

[DOC]

Yeah, it only took 1800 years.


Way to be effective, Jesus!

Actually it could be argued it was a stroke of genius to handle it the way the Christians did. The most important thing in war is to survive to fight another day. If Jesus and other Christians came out loudly and aggressively against the deeply entrenched System of slavery in the Roman Empire they all could have been killed immediately as revolutionaries against the Roman Empire and Christianity would have been stopped dead in its tracks. Yes, in a perfect world slavery would have been outlawed immediately. But it is naive to think that could of happened.

But the good news is slowly but surely Christianity played a big part in slavery's collapse:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4969787#post4969787

 

[paximperium]

Actually it could be argued it was a stroke of genius to handle it the way the Christians did. The most important thing in war is to survive to fight another day. If Jesus and other Christians came out loudly and aggressively against the deeply entrenched System of slavery in the Roman Empire they all could have been killed immediately as revolutionaries against the Roman Empire and Christianity would have been stopped dead in its tracks. Yes, in a perfect world slavery would have been outlawed immediately. But it is naive to thing that could of happened.

The power of god stopped in in tracks by a mortal empire and men? What a pathetic god and religion...or perhaps it could all be nothing more than a myth and fantasy?

But the good news is slowly but surely Christianity played a big part in slavery's collapse:

Oh most definitely but it also did alot in its promulgation. In other words, it did nothing. Men did.

 

[Hokulele]

Actually it could be argued it was a stroke of genius to handle it the way the Christians did. The most important thing in war is to survive to fight another day. If Jesus and other Christians came out loudly and aggressively against the deeply entrenched System of slavery in the Roman Empire they all could have been killed immediately as revolutionaries against the Roman Empire and Christianity would have been stopped dead in its tracks. Yes, in a perfect world slavery would have been outlawed immediately. But it is naive to think that could of happened.

Huh. So much for omnipotence...

 

[DOC]

The old testament is full of instructions as to how to sell, circumcise and punish slaves. As you know Jesus endorsed all the old laws.

The OT also has laws on when to free a slave and how to treat slaves as your own children. And if Jesus endorsed all the old laws why did the religious leaders of the day want to kill him so badly?

 

[paximperium]

The OT also has laws on when to free a slave and how to treat slaves as your own children.

So the Bible had instructions on how to enslave, keep, punish, treat and free slaves. What a moral manual you have there.

And if Jesus endorsed all the old laws why did they the religious leaders of the day want to kill him so badly?

Or so the Bible says.

 

[Hokulele]

And if Jesus endorsed all the old laws why did the religious leaders of the day want to kill him so badly?

Please provide evidence for this statement.

 

[Lothian]

Actually it could be argued it was a stroke of genius to handle it the way the Christians did. The most important thing in war is to survive to fight another day.

Remind me which commandment is ◊◊◊◊ everyone else, look after number 1,

If Jesus and other Christians came out loudly and aggressively against the deeply entrenched System of slavery in the Roman Empire they all could have been killed immediately as revolutionaries against the Roman Empire and Christianity would have been stopped dead in its tracks.

If Jesus was killed he could rise and rise and rise again and keep repeating the message. After the 10th or 11th time he is killed and has risen I think the message might start to sink that this guy is rather special and perhaps people should listen to him. Instead he waits 1800 years until man defies his teachings. You call this Genius, Heinous more like.

 

[joobz]

The OT also has laws on when to free a slave and how to treat slaves as your own children.

Then jesus agrees with beating your children?
"That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. But one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. "
-luke 12:47

You've just convinced me that Jesus was less moral by today's standards than I thought.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Actually it could be argued it was a stroke of genius to handle it the way the Christians did. The most important thing in war is to survive to fight another day. If Jesus and other Christians came out loudly and aggressively against the deeply entrenched System of slavery in the Roman Empire they all could have been killed immediately as revolutionaries against the Roman Empire and Christianity would have been stopped dead in its tracks. Yes, in a perfect world slavery would have been outlawed immediately. But it is naive to think that could of happened.

But the good news is slowly but surely Christianity played a big part in slavery's collapse:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4969787#post4969787

You're quite the comedian, aren't you? Unconsciously so, I'm sure, but nonetheless every now and then you make me LOL.

 

[X]

Is it possible to leave 900 posts in an evidence thread without giving any evidence? People really need to contemplate about that.

Not only is it possible, but you've done it.

I'm serious. Most of what you call "evidence" rests upon you saying "it's possible" or "I suppose" or "likely" or some other phrase indicating that you speak of personal belief. NOT fact. NOT evidence.

Facts and evidence should not depend on what someone thinks might have happened.

You really need to think about that.




After all, this thread is about "evidence".


I wonder...

DOC, do be so kind as to oblige us with your definition of "evidence".
It seems to be different than everyone else's.

 

[amb]

Docs evidence is bible based. Nothing historical in that apart from some people and places.
All else is faith based.

 

[RobRoy]

Docs evidence is bible based. Nothing historical in that apart from some people and places.

Well, and some of the events . . . actually, that's really not a very good counter-argument when you use the broad paintbrush.

 

[DOC]

And if Jesus endorsed all the old laws why did the religious leaders of the day want to kill him so badly?

Please provide evidence for this statement.

From the article Why Did They Kill Jesus?
Mark 15:1-15
April 5, 2009 – ©Rev. Dr. Linnea E. Carnes

"In John 12:19 it says that some Pharisees said to one another, “You see, you can do nothing. Look, the world has gone after him!” They wanted Jesus killed because of envy. But there was another reason.

Several times in the gospels we read that the chief priest, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest Jesus … but they were afraid of the crowd. [Mk.12:12]. They wanted to kill him, but they were afraid because the crowd loved him. [Mk.11:18].

Two days before the Passover, “the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him.” [Mk.14:1-2]. Jesus spoke and acted with great authority and power and were afraid of him."

http://www.immanuelcov.org/sermons/090405.htm