Rationing Health Care - it's a lie!

And I think that this is a far better and sounder argument than complaining about framing or trying to parse the term "rationing."
I'm not parsing the term. But your post and a few others show how successful framing government run health care as rationing has been.

I've not heard many people here even making an attempt to show why, if I can't afford to buy the best car that isn't rationing, but if I can't afford to buy the best health care, it is.
 
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I've not heard many people here even making an attempt to show why, if I can't afford to buy the best car that isn't rationing, but if I can't afford to buy the best health care, it is.

Do you have me on ignore or is your brain unable to process ideas you don't agree with?

The difference is that with a car, the buyer buys directly from the dealer. (free market)

With healthcare, it is a third party you pay who decides what you can or can't get, based on the group's resources. (not really free market)
 
I have to agree with skeptigirl. Health care isn't being rationed. The money that we pay to HMOs is rationed back to us, after they skim some off the top. In the mean time, they put it in the stock market and hope to make more money, and if they don't, you pay more and more next year, never less if the market goes up. If you have extra money to supplement what the HMO will pay for, you can get past the problem, at least sometimes.

The next question is who would do a more efficient job of rationing that money. insurance agencies and HMOs, you or the government?

Insurance fails quickly, as they have layer upon layer of overpaid management and huge overhead. You? One moderate medical emergency and its bankruptcy for you. The government can simply do the job for less as long as it is able to have enough people buying in to compete with insurance. This can either happen by getting rid of health insurance altogether or letting anybody who would rather have the government system get under their umbrella.

Another model that works fairly well is to force insurance agencies to not profit on a basic level of care that everybody must buy a policy in. Those who can't afford it can apply for subsidies. Insurance agencies can sell polices covering truly elective procedures, alternative meds and treatments, cosmetic treatments, special care, etc. This model is used in Germany and is very successful.

I would love to get some kind of care like this. I am teaching part time while I look for a full time faculty position. I am in good enough health that my health insurance is affordable. My wife is doing contract work while finishing her PhD, so she doesn't have employer supplied insurance either. But because the only migraine med that works for her is more expensive than the insurance companies want to pay for, they only offered her a ridiculously expensive policy, even costlier than what she kept under cobra from her last employer, which was a Cadillac plan. It stinks, but we don't have a choice other than to go without and strike out on our own.

Hopefully, that full time position isn't that far off for one of us, but until then, I've sold my soul to the company store.
 
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Do you have me on ignore or is your brain unable to process ideas you don't agree with?
You were repeating yourself and not addressing the issue. There was no point in replying. You are still repeating your argument but I'll repeat my answer one more time. But if we still don't agree then there is no sense repeating it to each other again.


The difference is that with a car, the buyer buys directly from the dealer. (free market)

With healthcare, it is a third party you pay who decides what you can or can't get, based on the group's resources. (not really free market)
Are police services rationed because they don't write tickets for running a stop sign in a parking lot?

Is a construction contractor rationing your remodel service when he/she tells you that the work you contracted for doesn't include hiring a pest exterminator for the termites they've uncovered? You pay the general contractor and he/she hires other people to do the work you are getting.

Or let's take insurance. Suppose you have a flood and the homeowner's insurance doesn't cover the repair work you want done. Is that rationing or is it that you didn't pay for flood insurance?


You are buying an insurance product. It covers what the contract you sign with the insurer says it covers. You and other people in this thread are saying because something isn't covered in that insurance product you purchased, that is rationing. I'm saying no, it is health care you didn't contract for. And in the case of UHS, it would be care the taxpayers didn't contract for.
 
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I have to agree with skeptigirl. Health care isn't being rationed. The money that we pay to HMOs is rationed back to us, after they skim some off the top. In the mean time, they put it in the stock market and hope to make more money, and if they don't, you pay more and more next year, never less if the market goes up. If you have extra money to supplement what the HMO will pay for, you can get past the problem, at least sometimes.
There are plenty of issues regarding health care reform that have nothing to do with the manufactured issue of rationing that isn't rationing.

Excessive profits by insurance companies is a BIG issue. Instead of talking about the false issue of rationing, we should be talking about the real issue of excessive profits being made on a service that people need to survive.

Another issue which has contributed to people accepting the falsely framed argument health care is being rationed, is unacceptable practices (or inadequate guidelines/regulations) for the people in charge of deciding what the contracted health care includes. The problem here isn't someone rationing your health care, it's someone deciding what is or is not covered under the contract.

If I'm a general contractor remodeling your house, there may be a number of things that come up that the contract failed to address one way or the other. Someone has to then decide how the contract is going to be interpreted in light of the things that have come up.

With private health care insurers, some unethical greedy bastards got the bright idea they could cheat people by claiming something wasn't covered in the contract that actually was covered. That isn't rationing, that is abusing the trust the customer had that when they signed the contract or when they paid their monthly premiums the insurer would abide by the contract.

The next question is who would do a more efficient job of rationing that money. insurance agencies and HMOs, you or the government?
Maybe you should also be asking who will be more honest and less greedy.


...
Another model that works fairly well is to force insurance agencies to not profit on a basic level of care that everybody must buy a policy in. Those who can't afford it can apply for subsidies. Insurance agencies can sell polices covering truly elective procedures, alternative meds and treatments, cosmetic treatments, special care, etc. This model is used in Germany and is very successful.
I think that is an excellent idea making alt med coverage something people pay extra for. I'd even be willing to trade that for making abortion coverage cost extra (as long as there were still options for poor women) if that got the bill passed.

This still doesn't address the dishonest insurance carriers however, who have been denying care that should have been covered so they can increase profits.

What you need is an arbitrator. One who can interpret the contract that spells out what is covered but who doesn't have a vested interest in either side. And you need to cap profits or increase competition.

...I would love to get some kind of care like this. I am teaching part time while I look for a full time faculty position. I am in good enough health that my health insurance is affordable. My wife is doing contract work while finishing her PhD, so she doesn't have employer supplied insurance either. But because the only migraine med that works for her is more expensive than the insurance companies want to pay for, they only offered her a ridiculously expensive policy, even costlier than what she kept under cobra from her last employer, which was a Cadillac plan. It stinks, but we don't have a choice other than to go without and strike out on our own.

Hopefully, that full time position isn't that far off for one of us, but until then, I've sold my soul to the company store.
Just an FYI. I belong to an HMO for my health care. It is a health maintenance organization. It also happens to be a non-profit co-op. I've been a member for over 30 years. And since I am also a health care provider, I do know the care offered by my HMO is good care, it's science based medicine, and I've never felt the care was rationed in any way.

They have a drug formulary meaning only certain drugs are covered. The physicians are involved in adding or subtracting drugs from the formulary. They base their decisions on science based research outcomes. Years ago I needed a drug that wasn't on the formulary. I got it but had to pay full cost for it. But, my doctor also looked into the research after I brought it to his attention. At first he got the HMO to cover the drug for some patients whose problem was worse than mine and eventually the HMO added the drug to the formulary and now it is covered.

The drug was never "rationed". It wasn't covered, then it was covered only for certain conditions, then it was covered. And the HMO made the decisions based on scientific evidence. They didn't cover the drug the minute there was a little evidence the drug was effective. They waited until the evidence was sufficient. It meant some people who could benefit either had to pay themselves or wait for more studies. But it could also have turned out not to be effective.

Paying (or not) for experimental treatments is another area people mistakenly believe health care is rationed to them. If you are desperate whether it is pain or something potentially fatal like cancer, it's really hard to not see denial of care as rationing. But it isn't rationing if it simply isn't covered by the insurance contract you have purchased.
 
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Of course you buy UHS. You pay via your taxes. You vote for the legislators who make the decisions on what will be covered.
And those are not the same, even if you have a participatory democracy (where an individual's vote has never swung an outcome much less written a manifesto).

The complaint I have is calling any government run health insurance rationing.
Your complaint manifests as a flawed rant and plays into the hands of the opponents of universal health systems you would like to argue down.

Rationing is someone telling you what you get from the limited supply.
Supply is limited by the ability to sell at the clearing price. Demand by the ability to buy at it. The purchasing power is fixed by policy under UHS and so are many of the prices and so are many of the goods. Anyone who wants to practice as a doctor for £300,000 a year can want as much as they like but they are prohibited from doing that under the state-financed system. Anyone who wants a non-approved medical service can want as much as they like but they can't get if from the state-financed system. Sure sounds like rationing to me.
 
You don't buy in a UHS. The state is an intermediary that buys for you. Or doesn't as the case may be.

This depends on your system doesn't it? I thought the Swiss system had people buying their health care, with goverment assistence if they needed help to afford it.
 
Let's drop the BS.
Health Care is a limited resource, and therefore it is going to get rationed. The question is how.

This depends on how you define rationed. It is not rationed like it is by some companies in the US with life time maximums on expenses.

No one says "Look you have had your cancer relapse before, we only cover the first relapse".

As such it does not look much at all like a rationing system. Yes they are managed but that is not the same thing.
 
Do you have me on ignore or is your brain unable to process ideas you don't agree with?

The difference is that with a car, the buyer buys directly from the dealer. (free market)

With healthcare, it is a third party you pay who decides what you can or can't get, based on the group's resources. (not really free market)

Not at all, you are free to deal dirrectly with doctors in a free market.
 
And those are not the same, even if you have a participatory democracy (where an individual's vote has never swung an outcome much less written a manifesto).
Well if you get the health insurance your employer buys, it isn't the same either. But this is just a sidetrack from the point here. However you pay for it, it remains a package you get. That package consists of certain elements. Rationing only occurs if there is some limited piece in that package such as a flu vaccine shortage.

Just because a government employee or an insurance adjuster interprets what is covered in that package does not make it rationing. It makes it someone deciding what is in the package.

Your complaint manifests as a flawed rant and plays into the hands of the opponents of universal health systems you would like to argue down.
Consider this one of the many things we don't see eye to eye on.

Supply is limited by the ability to sell at the clearing price. Demand by the ability to buy at it. The purchasing power is fixed by policy under UHS and so are many of the prices and so are many of the goods. Anyone who wants to practice as a doctor for £300,000 a year can want as much as they like but they are prohibited from doing that under the state-financed system. Anyone who wants a non-approved medical service can want as much as they like but they can't get if from the state-financed system. Sure sounds like rationing to me.
Sounds like you have other issues here about the lack of free market forces operating in the NHS in the UK. That is a topic for another thread.

As far as not getting what you want from the state-financed system, unless you want to equally describe what the police and fire departments do as also rationed services, then it is just a package of services that are included in the state-financed plan. It is not rationed services with the exception, like I said, of things like vaccines in short supply.

In the UK it sounds like you have the option of buying care in addition to what is covered in the state plan. But if that is not the case with every kind of health care, as far as calling something rationing because it is not available in your country, would you then say the US rations pharmaceuticals when they are approved in the UK but not in the US? They are not available here. Is that rationing because regulations prohibit their use? Is it rationing because you need a prescription for a drug?


Sorry, I was mixing up which country you were in. I have corrected the post.
 
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Um, we have schedule lists here, and if you don't have the insuranse or a wad of money, you won't get the surgery. It would have to be an emergent situation with no other treatment options for you to get 'indigent' care here.

But everyone has to go on a list. You wait to be scheduled. You wait for your surgery.

I know. Rationing health services in this way is not new.

It's so funny that I explained this and you... slid past it. Not redoing myself, it's a few posts above yours.

Not as far as I can see. I asked for your definition. You seem to have simply posted a couple of examples and a whole heap of insults for some unfathonomable reason.

Who do you think is paying for all the people who show up at hospital EDs now and don't pay for the care they receive?The law says they cannot be turned away.

Why are the combative tone?

I believe that is one of the areas where health care reform could realise efficiencies.

The debate needs to be honest in order for people to make informed choice.

Obviously.

When the opponents are allowed to make false claims about rationing health care, lots of people are influenced.

The first ammendment protects the dishonest as much as the honest.

By pointing out the dishonest argument, I hope to steer the debate back to factual territory.

I don't think your approach is going to achieve that.

I do emphasize that, along with the fact as I noted above, you are paying for the deadbeats right now both through taxes that fund public hospitals and by paying for health care since it includes hospitals recouping their bad dept.

I pay taxes towards a government health service and private insurance on top of that. We still pay for people going to Emergency Departments when they don't need to. I've seen studies looking into unnecesary use of ambulances but not Emergency Departments so I can't comment on how much less of a problem it is here.
 
So waiting for an appointment now is rationing?

Yes.

I'm not parsing the term. But your post and a few others show how successful framing government run health care as rationing has been.

Do you have any evidence that we have even been exposed to the arguments you are railing against?

I've not heard many people here even making an attempt to show why, if I can't afford to buy the best car that isn't rationing, but if I can't afford to buy the best health care, it is.

In economics a price mechanism is rationing.
 
I've kind of skimmed some of this thread, because it seems to me like a totally sterile semantic argument. We agree that elective healthcare procedures are not normally performed the same day that the need for them is diagnosed. We also agree that in some systems the patient may wait longer than in others. I think we might also agree that at some not-entirely-clearcut point, a wait time becomes "too long".

Is this more likely to occur in a universal healthcare system compared to the current US system? I'm not sure. I'd have said yes, except that I know the NHS has improved its wait times considerably over the past 10 years, and I've been quite surprised by the lengths of wait times some insured US posters have spoken about.

The much more obvious difference between the systems, which we've done to death repeatedly, is that in a universal healthcare system you will be treated eventually. Even if it takes six months or ten months, you will get that new hip. In contrast, an American citizen without the right insurance may wait effectively forever - or at least until he or she turns 65.

Why does the word "rationing" get applied to the universal systems and not to the insurance-based systems? It's only semantics after all.

It's absolutely true to say that what is in short supply is money, not healthcare. There's no limit to the healthcare that can be supplied, if the purchasers are willing to pay enough - and really, that applies to both publicly-funded and privately-funded systems.

I think the issue is that when the government is paying, then any restrictions on what is available are labelled "rationing", but when the payer is private, then the label isn't as readily applied. But in reality, an insurance company restricting its benefits because of limited funds, or even an individual saying "I'm rationing myself to one dentist's visit per year", are in exactly the same position.

It seems to me that the "rationing" label is less easy to apply to the latter, because of the appearance of choice involved. OK, I can only afford a cheapo insurance scheme which won't cover what I need, but that's not rationing because I could always have bought a more expensive one - if only I'd had the money. I'm choosing to limit myself to one dentist's visit a year - but that's my choice (even if it's made from financial necessity).

With universal healthcare, if the government is paying, then the individual feels that a choice has been taken away - even if it wasn't a choice they really had in the first place, due to lack of funds. Ot at least, that's where my struggles to understand the US resistance to universal healthcare are taking me.

However, this isn't actually true. Sure, nobody likes paying taxes. But if you vote for the party promising you these tax cuts, then the other side of that may be that you can't get so much healthcare. It's exactly the same as choosing the cheaper insurance policy, it's just that people don't think that way when some slimy politico comes along and tells you that taxation is theft.

You don't want universal healthcare rationed to the extent that you're likely to notice it? Simple. Fund it properly. And the USA shouldn't have too much difficulty doing that, considering that its total healthcare spend at the moment is a cool twice the spend of countries with universal healthcare that cover all their citizens.

You still worried? Concerned that the publicly-funded system might not provide everything you might conceivably need or want? Well, you're still not being rationed, any more than you were before. If you have the money to pay for more, then you can have it. Either by continuing to pay into an insurance policy that will pay for the extra bits, or simply by putting you hand in your pocket. I can do that in Britain, and have all the healthcare I want, even if the eye-poppingly comprehensive NHS provision were in some way too little for me.

So much for rationing.

US citizens really need to have this explained better, and to understand it better. A universal healthcare system aims to give everybody what they need, when they need it (give or take a bit of a wait for elective procedures). The amount available, however, will be restricted according to how much the citizens as a group decide they're willing to pay. If you as an individual feel you need or want more than this, however, you're still not rationed. You're still entirely free to go ahead and pay for it. If you then whine, but I can't afford to do that, then too bad. You probably couldn't have afforded a properly comprehensive insurance policy in the first place.

What also needs to be explained is that citizens who decide to take out extra insurance are not barred from accessing the universal system - they're paying for it, they get to use it. So even if they do want more insurance, the price may be very much less than they think. That's the case in Britain, where most insured people still use the NHS for basic and emergency care, and only activate the insurance option when they need an elective procedure.

The way it tends to work is that the poorer the universal coverage, the more insurance sells. However, if the universal coverage is poor because taxes are low, then you should have the money for the extra insurance, right? If the universal coverage is high, then the taxes may be higher too - but who needs insurance?

Every country chooses how they balance this system according to their particular social mores and beliefs. Your choice. But to declare that you don't want any universal coverage because you're concerned it might not cover absolutely everything, is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Rolfe.
 
I've kind of skimmed some of this thread, because it seems to me like a totally sterile semantic argument. We agree that elective healthcare procedures are not normally performed the same day that the need for them is diagnosed. We also agree that in some systems the patient may wait longer than in others. I think we might also agree that at some not-entirely-clearcut point, a wait time becomes "too long".

Is this more likely to occur in a universal healthcare system compared to the current US system? I'm not sure. I'd have said yes, except that I know the NHS has improved its wait times considerably over the past 10 years, and I've been quite surprised by the lengths of wait times some insured US posters have spoken about.

The thing is that there is no universal wait time. If only a few doctors who do the procedure accept your insurance you will have to wait for them, and they could be very backed up. Of course someone with better insurance might have more doctors available to him

Why does the word "rationing" get applied to the universal systems and not to the insurance-based systems? It's only semantics after all.

It is a great political scare word. You need to play on peoples fears when the evidence is not on your side. This seems to be very effective.
 
Well if you get the health insurance your employer buys, it isn't the same either.
Absoutely. Employer-pooled health insurance is rationing at work too. That should be your rejoinder to "OMG the socialists ration their care!" drama. I think it would help you more.

But this is just a sidetrack from the point here.
On the contrary it is a much better central point.

Just because a government employee or an insurance adjuster interprets what is covered in that package does not make it rationing. It makes it someone deciding what is in the package.
Same thing when the someone is not the beneficiary. Which is why you'd do well to drop your war of the wordsmiths because it trips over the starting line of advancing your position.
 
Not as far as I can see. I asked for your definition. You seem to have simply posted a couple of examples and a whole heap of insults for some unfathonomable reason.

Post #60 mate. That defines it more than enough. If you really need the full, actual definition, rationing is any system that distributes limited resources. Surgery is not an example, surgery tends to be a demand-limited service (there's only so many people who need surgery). You could use plastic surgery I guess, but when you say that the system denies people surgery, they don't tend to be thinking you mean boob jobs.

As for my 'heaps' of insults, I've said you're ignorant of the issue. If that's insulting, remedy your ignorance that lead to my description. Then when I describe you as ignorant, it will be obvious to everyone that that is false, and thus the insult will be more on my perception than your knowledge. As it stands, well, you're insulted by my description. I'll leave working out whether or not you're there yet as an exercise to the reader.

Think, all this could have been solved if you used the example of organ donations. Of course it would be immediately obvious to all observers that the current system rations organ donations, so you had to use a system that was not rationed and imply it would become rationed. Cute scare tactics. Now stop insulting us by assuming we're this dumb. That crap flies well at freeperville, keep it there.
 
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It's a lie most of the time. It sounds right using the term, rationing health care, so most people just accept that terminology is correct without thinking. But it isn't correct at all and it harms a debate when one side frames the issue falsely.


If I cannot afford all the health care that is available, that is not rationing. That would be choosing what I can and cannot afford.

If there is a shortage of flu vaccine and the government controls who gets a dose, that is rationing.

Do you see the difference?


The NHS does not ration health care, the UK public chooses what it is willing to purchase making that decision through their vote, presumably.

It's been noted that government control of industries tends to increase shortages, rather than decrease them.

Ok, then for whatever reason, there is a shortage. Now what?

Well, temporarily you can ration essential things in that local area so nobody dies.

But you get out of it in the long run by letting prices rise, then competition fills in the gap, and prices come back down.


It's debatable whether the former is even necessary except in extreme cases, and maybe not even then. In the US, hurricanes hit the southern coast. Power is out. People want to buy ice to keep food cool.

Ice bag prices skyrocket.


People in the north load up trucks of ice bags and drive south and sell them for $10 or $20 per bag.


Politicians pontificate, how horrible! How awful to take advantage of these people! This is now outlawed!


Take a guess what happens. Take a guess at what the average ice-ownership and food-spoilage and food-hunger rates of the affected people become.

Hint: Nobody's gonna fill a truck with ice and drive it down there to sell it for what they paid for it.



Oh, and there's more to this. For Katrina, government tried to make up the difference. Eight hundred quintillion tons of ice sat in ice warehouses over fifty thousand miles away for two years, then was destroyed as not fit for human consumption.
 
Why do people debate this as if that if universal health insurance is provided, then it will mean the government controls the entire health-care industry?
 
The difference is that with a car, the buyer buys directly from the dealer. (free market)

With healthcare, it is a third party you pay who decides what you can or can't get, based on the group's resources. (not really free market)

Circular logic alert!

You are defining “rationing” as specific property that can only apply government run systems, and then trying to argue that non-government run systems are superior because they don’t have it even though an exact analogy exists and is only differentiated by your arbitrary definition. Critical thinking 101 demands that if you choose that particular definition for “rationing” you cannot appeal to it in any government vs private sector debate.

A more likely answer is that your definition is lacking, but you want to define it that way for reasons of political spin and that you would not challenge or would even encourage the misuse of this term should your favored definition be adopted.
 

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