Amway TV ad

[Tex2]

Yes, you have. You also have had the opportunity to answer questions asked of others, and have chosen to remain on the sidelines.

You would if you were interested in the results.

You wouldn't if you didn't want to do the work involved in obtaining the results.

 

[NewtonTrino]

It's pretty clear that growth in north america has substantially slowed. Most of the growth seems to be overseas. How do you reconcile this with the idea that it's not saturated?

 

[Tex2]

Easy. The business IS saturated in the U.S. when the tool scam is taken into account. Take away the tool scam, and the lid comes off the saturation level.

A phyical analogy is trying to fill a bucket that has a number of holes in it. Plug up the largest one (the tool scam), and a new, higher equilibrium level is reached.

 

[NewtonTrino]

So to be clear don't get into the business into the tool scam is shut down, right?

 

[Tex2]

I've said exactly that on many occasions. This is the only language that Amway apparently understands.

 

[Porkchopjim]

Always amazes me how so many people who claim Amway is somehow a scam are just repeatedly dishonest. What's even more bizarre is how they do it when it's so easy to prove. The closest thing Nutrilite has to a "costco" vitamin is Nutrilite Daily. 90 day supply at full retail price? $11.30.

And this is the powerhouse product that propelled Amway to number 1? Right...

No - that is a product that you sell to non-IBOs who want a decent vitamin.

Nutrilite $80 vitamins are bought and consumed by IBOs themselves to make 'performance goals' because volume is all that matters - no matter where it comes from...

Run the numbers and see how close you can get to 'Number one Brand' using only IBOs - only the ones who 'do' anything, of course - chugging Double X and the other overpriced vitamin products and see how close to 'Number One' you get.

Bet it's pretty darn close!

The FTC has explicitly said the level of "internal consumption" does not determine whether something is a pyramid scheme...

Funny how you can read that part but not the rest of that memo...

Amway is NOT a buyer's club - the example cited by the FTC as something with NO external consumption.

Something is a pyramid scheme because you make money by recruiting people. It's really quite simple - the sine qua non of a Pyramid Scheme (without which it is not) is the second element of the so-called "Koscot test" -

Let me sine qua non right back at you:

You can charge a fee, and make a profit, by recruiting someone into a 'Buyers Club' and that new participant doesn't have to do a single other thing. That NEW participant also has the right to recruit new people and make a profit from that, which indeed can be paid upwards ala MLM.

Holy cow! The FTC just outlawed Buyer's Clubs! Son of a Gun! Or, IBOFB/ICERAT/Insider isn't being truthful with everyone. Perhaps not even himself.

So the law is clear - YOU ARE WRONG.

The law is clear. You just misrepresent it - always. That doesn't make me wrong, but it does make you something else.

Anyway - I find it interesting that in the FTC cited sales to non-distributors, and Amway to THIS DAY has specific rules requiring a certain amount of sales to non-IBOs...seeing as they don't matter, according to you.

If the law was as YOU say it were, Amway would save itself a lot of grief by not worrying about something thinking that only IBOs buy their products...

Why are there EXPLICIT rules requiring sales to NON-IBOs?

And Texie,

Seeing as you didn't know you had to SELL something to make a profit and you STILL can't figure out what the UK lawsuit was about...claiming that you understand the tax laws just might be a stretch. Plus, you've given the kind people here no reason at all to doubt your business acumen...

 

[icerat]

For interested parties I provided links to all sources for my statements, make your own judgements.

 

[Tex2]

Double X is $44.84 for a month supply, PV/BV:20.56/59.63.

An IBO can make a (small) profit without selling anything to non-IBOs, up to 25% off their own purchases. I consider this a profit because it is money not available to a non-IBO customer. You prefer to call it a rebate, and I'm okay with that, but it's the exact SAME amount of dollars, whatever label you want to give it.

I know what the UK lawsuit was all about, and getting rid of the tool scam was a major portion of it....claiming that you understand the tax laws just might be a stretch. Plus, you've given the kind people here every reason to doubt your business acumen, or more accurately, lack thereof...LOL

 

[cyborg]

Yes, you have. You also have had the opportunity to answer questions asked of others, and have chosen to remain on the sidelines.

I'm not generally prone to answering entire backlogs of questions addressed to all and sundry. I have no particular recollection of whatever questions it is you are annoyed by not being answered.

You would if you were interested in the results.

You wouldn't if you didn't want to do the work involved in obtaining the results.

So:

What are the results?

Why wouldn't I want to do the work to get the results?

 

[Bob Klase]

An IBO can make a (small) profit without selling anything to non-IBOs, up to 25% off their own purchases. I consider this a profit because it is money not available to a non-IBO customer. You prefer to call it a rebate, and I'm okay with that, but it's the exact SAME amount of dollars, whatever label you want to give it.

Your definition of 'profit' means I'm making a profit every time I use a coupon at a retail store. Buy something for $20, get $1 off and you made $1 'profit'?

 

[icerat]

For the record, Tex's definition of "profit" isn't one I would use, nor any other Amway business owner I know. Especially since in most parts of the world profits are taxed and rebates are not.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

I think profit is usually defined as income minus expenses, not just income.

 

[cyborg]

incoming cashflow - outgoing cashflows = profit

outgoing cashflows * x% != profit

 

[Tex2]

cyborg, you don't have to have a recollection, just go back to page 15 and start reading.

The results are published averages for various pin levels. Pick one.

There are various reasons you wouldn't do the work. You're lazy, aren't willing to learn new things, are too afraid to approach other people, etc.

Bob, if you have $1 more in your pocket, call it a rebate. But what happens when that coupon is based on how many other shoppers you are responsible for shopping at the same store, and you get $8? Is it still a rebate?

For the record, icerat/ibofb's definition of "ethics" isn't one I would use, but all Amway LCKs I know, especially Jim Dornan, agree with him. Especially since in most parts of the world ethics are simple concepts, like telling the truth about the business model. Like icerat/ibofb's earlier analogy, I was illustrating a concept, not suggest a perfect parallel scenario. I also clearly stated I have no issue with calling the first level a rebate, but beyond that would say a profit is a more appropriate word to use. The bottom line is the dollars are the same, so call it a tomato for all I care.

cynical/cyborg, the terms you are reaching for are gross profit and net profit. For most IBOs, net profit is GROSSLY negative.

 

[Bob Klase]

Bob, if you have $1 more in your pocket, call it a rebate.

Something cost $20 and you don't buy it. You have $20 more in your pocket- rebate? (or profit?)

But what happens when that coupon is based on how many other shoppers you are responsible for shopping at the same store, and you get $8? Is it still a rebate?

What happens if you spent $10 getting those other shoppers in the store for your $8- is it still profit?

 

[Tex2]

Bob,

Neither.

That would be a gross proft of $8, a net profit of -$2. Don't you read my other posts? You should have been able to figure this one out for yourself. What if those customers keep buying, month after month, year after year, and you spend far less than $10 for that result?

I also noticed you didn't answer my question. That appears to be a trend on this forum. You don't answer my questions, but I answer yours. Interesting.

 

[Almo]

Scientology is legal. Amway is legal. This does not mean they are not scams.

 

[Tex2]

Almo, that was deep....LOL

 

[Skeptic]

Your formula wasn't wrong per se, it just has nothing to do with how Amway or legitimate MLMs work.

There is no such thing as a "legitimate" MLM. In all MLMs, the top 5% (at most) make 95% of the profit -- regardless of how hard those below them work. That it itself would not be so bad if the profit actually came from paying customers. What's far worse is that the vast majority of the profit comes from forcing the bottom 95% to pony up money for worthless "training" and "tools" and "seminars" or to stock their own homes with tons of unsold products.

Take, for instance, Microsoft. Does Bill Gates make more than the guy who answers the phone at tech support? Yes, of course. But both of them make money from outside -- from the customers who are not part of Microsoft who buy Microsoft products. Of course Microsoft people buy MS products too (often at a discount), but they represent only a tiny fraction of Microsoft's entire customer base.

Not so with MLMs. In MLMs, and in Amway especially, the vast majority of the product is bought by those who are themselves in the MLM. Sure, Amway claims a court decided it isn't an illegal business IF it were to obey the "70% rule" (70% of the products must be sold to non-distributors) and various other rules, but it is not hard to see that this is simply not the case. The vast majority of Amway products, over 90% with all probability, are bought by people who are themselves distributors. When it comes to the "tools", the figure is probably closer to 99%.

It's as if Bill Gates, instead of paying the guy who answers the phone a salary, actually demanded that HE (the phone guy) pay HIM (Gates) money for the "privilege" of "joining the great opportunity" of being in Microsoft at all, and that THIS was the source of 90% of Gates' wealth.

It's a scam.

 

[Bob Klase]

Bob,

Neither.

That would be a gross proft of $8, a net profit of -$2. Don't you read my other posts?

Some of them. I try to skip the name calling, LOLing and demands to call you. Leaving all that out there's not really much left but I'm sure I probably miss other things while skipping the garbage.

I also noticed you didn't answer my question. That appears to be a trend on this forum. You don't answer my questions, but I answer yours. Interesting.

The answer to your question is- maybe. It depends on how you define 'rebate'. Then it could depend on how much you paid to get it. It might also be income and/or it could be profit. None of those can be assumed based on the limited information given.