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Moderated Continuation - Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

triforcharity said:
but if the bottom gave out first (which is what I would assume happened, but I am not an engineer, nor am I psychic, but I do have some basic physics classes in high school) would the others not tumble sideways and all over the place?? As the bottom began to fail, the top would then be forced to handle loads it wasn't designed for, and began to fail also. I mean, really, the upper portion of that core didn't look pristine to me.

Oh, and the dirst and concrete dust that remains in the air after the core has fallen, is that what BS is talking about "dustification"????? I almost sharted myself when I read that.
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At the point where the columns came out of he ground they were truly massive. I can't see how the bottom could fail first unless the material was super brittle. In that case the visible bottom might have given out first.
 
Heiwa said:
So you say that to destroy a structure A, you only have to destroy some floors up top of structure A ... and the whole structure A collapses, like a house of cards, incl. the core columns.
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No, he's saying that at WTC the exterior columns plus their connection to the core (the floors) provided the lateral bracing. This is clear from his comments.

If you removed the floors from a large RC structure the result might be totally different. You cannot treat all structures in your childlike A-B-C fashion.

p.s. - you were going to provide some energy balance figures for your "two-mile drop / no collapse" scenario. What happened to those?
 
At the 1:30 mark and the 2:30 mark in this video you see the floor trusses falling away one by one. But this is not the true picture that we should have in our minds as I understand it. The steel floorpans into which the 4'' thick concrete floors were poured were welded across the tops of these trusses making them into large floor units. I read somewhere that tthere were 48 such floorpans on each floor. This is just to get a clearer picture of how it really looked.

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgu...q=core+wtc2&gbv=2&ndsp=20&hl=en&sa=N&start=60

PS scroll down to 'wtc2 took 30 seconds to collapse'.
 
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GlennB said:
No, he's saying that at WTC the exterior columns plus their connection to the core (the floors) provided the lateral bracing. This is clear from his comments.

If you removed the floors from a large RC structure the result might be totally different. You cannot treat all structures in your childlike A-B-C fashion.

p.s. - you were going to provide some energy balance figures for your "two-mile drop / no collapse" scenario. What happened to those?
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No, he said:

"The lateral bracing was the perimeter columns. The floors provided the connection between the core columns and the perimeter columns. The floors were destroyed. The core columns fell down because of this."

Quite confusing actually. The floors were destroyed? Controlled demolition?

But, let's face it. The core columns do not fall down, if you remove, demolish the floors.

In order to one-way crush down destroy WTC 1 and 2 you have to destroy the core ... at regular intervals. Controlled demolition is the only way.

Re energy balance I replied to that some post ago. Gravity forces alone cannot one-way crush down any structure from top down. You have to apply controlled demolition forces destroying primary supporting elements at regular intervals in the structure below to produce what appears as a one-way crush down. The perpetrators made a mistake! They also blow up upper part C much too early. As seen on all videos.
 
Heiwa said:
Re energy balance I replied to that some post ago. Gravity forces alone cannot one-way crush down any structure from top down. You have to apply controlled demolition forces destroying primary supporting elements at regular intervals in the structure below to produce what appears as a one-way crush down. The perpetrators made a mistake! They also blow up upper part C much too early. As seen on all videos.
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I think my head is going to asplode.

I'm now quite sure that Heiwa's avatar is a Heiwanese architectural drawing of a house.
 
Heiwa said:
Re energy balance I replied to that some post ago. Gravity forces alone cannot one-way crush down any structure from top down. You have to apply controlled demolition forces destroying primary supporting elements at regular intervals in the structure below to produce what appears as a one-way crush down. The perpetrators made a mistake! They also blow up upper part C much too early. As seen on all videos.
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Of course they did Heiwa; those nasty perps pacted each tower with massive amounts of explosives before slamming planes into them. The planes missed all the explosives and the buildings burnt which of course didn't affect the massive amount of preplanted explosives. And then they blew up the entire building, the upper section first, in the centre of New York while it was broadcast live to the entire planet and guess what ? Nobody noticed as thousands of tons of steel framed building was completely destroyed by all the preplanted explosives apart from you after watching a you tube video years later.

You are either completely insane or an utter fool if you think for one second the above scenario took place but I guess in Loony town it is the norm.
 
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I shouldn't worry, folks, Heiwa is probably busy writing a major paper (in his own mind) on why ships can't float.

Sorry for being sarcastic, but there's only so much stupid with a grin on it's face you can take before you want to punch it.

I mean really. Like, hey, guys, anybody realise that Michael Jackson is still alive? No seriously. I've written a paper about it that has been accepted by Morons Monthly and my website about it has nearly 1000 hits a week from the local lunatic asylum. I don't see why people on JREF are so uneducated about this topic. You need to do some research. And there's no need to be rude, we're just having a civilised exchange of views here. Oh, Have I got 2 people banned for losing their tempers with me for being a prat. What a shame.

Meanwhile, prove I'm wrong because every time Michael Jackson's on the radio he sounds alive to me.

Prove I'm wrong
Prove I'm wrong
Prove I'm wrong...

Repeat until audience commits suicide.

Sorry, mods, I just think Heiwa is a troll and should have been dispensed with months ago. He has about as much to contribute to the 9/11 discussion as Paris Hilton on one of her more egotistical days.
 
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Let me see if I have this straight...

You just watched the video that shows the core of the building still standing after the collapse wave has passed it by...

And yet, you still have the senselessness to say:

Heiwa said:
...
In order to one-way crush down destroy WTC 1 and 2 you have to destroy the core ... at regular intervals. Controlled demolition is the only way.
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Do you ever stop to think to modify your opinions to match what you see with your eyes?

If the collapse wave can so OBVIOUSLY fracture the connections between the cross trusses & the core columns, then how can you possibly write that "in order to ... crush down [the towers] you have to destroy the core"?

BTW, a second question: WHAT was going to stop the crush down after it had descended, say 20 floors? after 40 floors? after 80 floors?

According to your theory, did they have to keep blowing up floors? Or was there some point where the collapse was self-sustaining?

Tom
 
Justin39640 said:
wow
youre really an engineer?
you really cant comprehend the difference?
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The floors were always within one 3-story lift of the columns. The columns CAN cantilever out of the diaphragm this distance.

I wonder how embarrassed Europeans are of Heiwa...
 
Heiwa said:
Nice, isn't it?
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Heiwa you've been asked repeatedly. They say the Fourteenth time's the charm
Heiwa when will that article be published
Change peer to peed then​

Heiwa (from april 12 or so post)
...don't worry! One-way crush down is not possible.

The article was sent to ASCE Journal of Mechanical Engineering on 3 february 2009 and is still under peer review, i am told. Editor Ross Corotis has informed he will publish it.
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Heiwa said:
Actually, when the structure was built the top floors were not even there ... and there was no collapse!
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*Facepalm*

Yes, they weren't. But they never exceeded 3 story lengths (i.e. the length of a vertical column). Furthermore, during construction, they didn't have moving 10 to 20 storey masses descending upon them. Nor were their load paths all out of whack from the impacts of 400+ MPH jets and ensuing fires.

Christ, man... I'm not an engineer, but even I understand this.
 
ElMondoHummus said:
*Facepalm*

Yes, they weren't. But they never exceeded 3 story lengths (i.e. the length of a vertical column). Furthermore, during construction, they didn't have moving 10 to 20 storey masses descending upon them. Nor were their load paths all out of whack from the impacts of 400+ MPH jets and ensuing fires.

Christ, man... I'm not an engineer, but even I understand this.
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even cats understand that...
 
Newtons Bit said:
The floors were always within one 3-story lift of the columns. The columns CAN cantilever out of the diaphragm this distance.

I wonder how embarrassed Europeans are of Heiwa...
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i know weve all watched videos of the towers being built
ive watched them in school when i was a kid (that old one)

that just had to be the stupidest statement ive read here
i think BS broke into heiwas house and is posting under his screenname

again for his professional sake
he better hope none of his customers read this website
 
Heiwa said:
No, he said:

Quite confusing actually. The floors were destroyed? Controlled demolition?

But, let's face it. The core columns do not fall down, if you remove, demolish the floors. In order to one-way crush down destroy WTC 1 and 2 you have to destroy the core ... at regular intervals. Controlled demolition is the only way.

Re energy balance I replied to that some post ago. Gravity forces alone cannot one-way crush down any structure from top down. You have to apply controlled demolition forces destroying primary supporting elements at regular intervals in the structure below to produce what appears as a one-way crush down. The perpetrators made a mistake! They also blow up upper part C much too early. As seen on all videos.
Click to expand...

40 and 60 stories of standing core columns after collapse prove you wrong. Confess your mistake Heiwa, say you've been wrong all along and are grateful to be corrected. Don't let others say, "Heiwa is irrational and cannot be persuaded by evidence. Heiwa is cuckoo. Heiwa es muy loco". Prove them wrong Heiwa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4u9i62bMXQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8wR9PQSPc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dWBBEtA5bI
 
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