Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks

[DC]

read with a grain of salt means in your case, ignore everything not fiting in your world view.

 

[Marc39]

I wonder why you skipped the part about Irgun, Ezel and Stern.
your view in the matter is totaly onesided. but the reality is not that onesided.

Did Irgun et al. initiate the '48 War? (Answer: No)

 

[DC]

Did Irgun et al. initiate the '48 War? (Answer: No)

no
the announcement on 14.Mai 1948 and the reaction of Arab leaders led to the war.

 

[FireGarden]

Laying the blame without any historical evidence, other than a sense of an "atmosphere" of expulsions. As if, Ben-Gurion gave orders through mental telepathy.

Morris cites expulsion orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin. Ben-Gurion does not need to be telepathic: Morris says he met with Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin before the expulsion orders were signed. Rabin noted the event in his diary: Ben-Gurion communicated with a gesture.

Ignore the evidence all you like.

 

[Marc39]

no
the announcement on 14.Mai 1948 and the reaction of Arab leaders led to the war.

Incorrect. The Arab League officially declared war on Israel. Blaming Israel's mere existence for Arab savagery in attempting to exterminate Jews is tantamount to suggesting the cold-blooded murder of thousands of Chechens at the hands of the Russian military would never have happened had Chechnya not existed.

 

[Pardalis]

Fair enough since the Holocaust is misused to further Israels interests, shut up opponents and to justify enormously stupid and violent policies

Could you expand on that?

You sound just like a Holocaust denier.

No, Holocaust and Shoah aren't historical facts that legitimize their usage for propaganda purposes after the Nazi-era

Could you give examples?

At least the Jews don't have to live side by side everyday with the former Nazis.

The drivel you are spouting is increasingly antisemitic, Oliver, be careful.

(of course, it's difficult to be anymore antisemitic after starting a thread called "the Holocaust is the Jews' own fault")

 

[Pardalis]

Who caused the Holocaust? A bunch of Judism-loving religious nuts who rather loved to be exterminated than giving up their religious stance for the sake of peace in the religious/political environement they lived in?

That's really what you think caused the Holocaust, isn't it?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146040

he argued that "the Holocaust probably never had happened if the Jews wouldn't have sticked to their religion and instead, integrated themselves into European societies so they wouldn't have been the scapegoat for centuries".

Well yes it is!

 

[Marc39]

Morris cites expulsion orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin. Ben-Gurion does not need to be telepathic: Morris says he met with Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin before the expulsion orders were signed. Rabin noted the event in his diary: Ben-Gurion communicated with a gesture.

Ignore the evidence all you like.

This is the result of the cleverness of Benny Morris. Morris is interviewed and two people of diametrically opposing viewpoints use his
comments--comments contained in the same interview--to support their divergent views. Brilliant!

 

[Pardalis]

All this bickering about historians just proves to show what I've been saying all along: whatever happened, it happened and MOVE ON!

Stop whining about the past and live side by side already.

 

[FireGarden]

This is the result of the cleverness of Benny Morris. Morris is interviewed and two people of diametrically opposing viewpoints use his
comments--comments contained in the same interview--to support their divergent views. Brilliant!

What do you think is at the heart of this brilliance? Morris' rhetoric or your nakba-denying super-powers?

Because one these people is willing to quote things like:

In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

The other person says: "Morris says there was no Israeli government policy of expulsion" -- without wondering were the orders came from.

One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"

One person reads Morris say:

"From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created."

And understands that the expulsions were not random acts of bad apples disobeying orders. The other only notices the part I put in italics and thinks that the lack of a comprehensive policy exonerates the Israeli government from a clear pattern of ordered expulsions.

 

[Marc39]

What do you think is at the heart of this brilliance? Morris' rhetoric or your nakba-denying super-powers?

Since you are unable to articulate in precise terms how this alleged nakba manifests itself, you prolly ought to refrain from going there, again.

 

[FireGarden]

All this bickering about historians just proves to show what I've been saying all along: whatever happened, it happened and MOVE ON!

Stop whining about the past and live side by side already.

"bickering about historians", huh?

Can you bring yourself to state what you think happened? And there is also bickering about many other events in history. I guess we have to move on from all of them, then? There's no point in recognising the agreement which exists among historians from across the political spectrum -- Benny Morris to Ilan Pappe.

You are exhibiting the same kind of bigotry you deplore in others.

Have you read Morris' interview? Have you read the wiki articles I linked earlier? Morris cites expulsion orders signed by Moshe Carmel and Yitzhak Rabin. Do you think he made them up? Did you read the corroborating quote I gave from Rabin's diary? Was he delusional when he wrote that? Was the entry forged? Please answer.

Or are you going to be non-commital because Marc39 sees fit to bicker about the opinion of Benny Morris on the grounds that he can voice that opinion better than Benny Morris himself.

 

[FireGarden]

Since you are unable to articulate in precise terms how this alleged nakba manifests itself, you prolly ought to refrain from going there, again.

One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"

 

[Pardalis]

There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea.

There is a palpable atmosphere of hatred against the Jews in the Middle East, there is this idea of pushing them back to the sea, so therefore can we say there is a Holocaust going on, since we're talking of ideas in the air?

 

[Pardalis]

Can you bring yourself to state what you think happened?

I don't give a **** what happened.

All I see are two infantile nations at each others throats, and they fuel their mutual hatred by winging about the past.

-You did this to me 60 years ago
-No, you did this to me 60 years ago
-Well you did this one time in 1948
-No, it was you that time

On and on...

 

[Marc39]

One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"

Had the Arabs not fought Israel's existence, figuratively and militarily, the Palestinians would have gotten a state 60 years ago and, instead of playing the victims for over half a century, might actually have been able to forge a viable society instead of being the dysfunctional basketcases they are.

 

[FireGarden]

There is a palpable atmosphere of hatred against the Jews in the Middle East, there is this idea of pushing them back to the sea, so therefore can we say there is a Holocaust going on, since we're talking of ideas in the air?

Is this an attempt at answering my questions?

Why do you make no reference to the signed expulsion orders? Why no mention of the actual acts which took place and corroborate Morris' opinion that Ben-Gurion had communicated his policy without having to actually sign an order himself?

 

[FireGarden]

I don't give a **** what happened.

Such wisdom.
I guess you don't give a **** if it all happens again. Did you read part 2 of Morris' interview? I guess not.

 

[Pardalis]

If it "happens again" then they'll deal with it accordingly, won't they?

You're stuck in the past.

 

[Marc39]

Such wisdom.
I guess you don't give a **** if it all happens again. Did you read part 2 of Morris' interview? I guess not, because you have the wisdom to not give a **** about what happens to people about whom you don't give a ****.

This is the same Benny Morris who wildly misinterpreted Ben-Gurion's letter to his son that the Arabs should be expelled when, in fact, Ben-Gurion stated the Arabs cannot be expelled. This is the individual whom you are relying on?