Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[zooterkin]

On the contrary, I have the Jewish/Roman historian Josephus on my side with regard to the existence of Moses. Living in Rome as he did he must of had access to all kinds of information about Egypt since it was a province of the Roman Empire.

("must have", I assume you mean.) Or perhaps he was just making it up. You have no evidence either way, just supposition.

And why are you so concerned about proof for Moses. Hokulele and Pax seemed to think its no big deal even if Moses was a general in the pharoahs army as the Roman/Jewish historian Josephus stated he was.

Because you keep bringing up the stories about him as if they were proof. Do you have any evidence that the Israelites were ever slaves in Egypt, apart from what is written in the bible?

 

[Worm]

You really don't get it do you?

(emphasis mine)

Living in Rome as he did he must of had access to all kinds of information about Egypt since it was a province of the Roman Empire.

There's no 'must' about it - I suspect that what you mean is 'he might have had'.

It's an assumption, and nothing more. It is not evidence.

 

[DOC]

Do you have any evidence that the Israelites were ever slaves in Egypt, apart from what is written in the bible?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4901967#post4901967

 

[zooterkin]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4901967#post4901967

That's a very long-winded way of saying, "no".


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4910130#post4910130

 

[DOC]

There's no 'must' about it - I suspect that what you mean is 'he might have had'.

It's an assumption, and nothing more. It is not evidence.

There is a good chance Josephus picked up some information when he visited the Egyptian city of Alexandria with the Roman emperor. Josephus was also married in this Egyptian city.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=543&letter=J

 

[zooterkin]

There is a good chance Josephus picked up some information when he visited the Egyptian city of Alexandria with the Roman emperor.

So, you're backing away from your earlier assertion? Or just adding another supposition?

 

[amb]

Josephus was writing stories that were ancient knowledge, hearsay, legends and what not.
Just because Josephus wrote this or that, does not make it true. Not forgetting of course, that the O/T was already in existence by the end of the century when he wrote his Antiquities.

 

[Simon39759]

On the contrary, I have the Jewish/Roman historian Josephus on my side with regard to the existence of Moses. Living in Rome as he did he must of had access to all kinds of information about Egypt since it was a province of the Roman Empire.

And why are you so concerned about proof for Moses. Hokulele and Pax seemed to think its no big deal even if Moses was a general in the pharoahs army as the Roman/Jewish historian Josephus stated he was.

Why is that?

Moses would allegedly have existed at least 1500 years before Josephus.
Why would Rome bother collecting evidences about the history of a recently acquired province 1500 years before? Romes that had just ran through a brief period of civil war? Why would details as inconsequential than the identity of a minor general have been among the data?

 

[joobz]

Pardon the indulgence, but this conversation is funny. I'd like to summarize it up to now:

Do you have any evidence that there was such a person as Moses, outside of the text of the bible?

Do you have evidence that Moses was real?

But we have evidence by his own words that the historian Josephus believed Moses existed.

No, I don't have evidence. But Josephus said he's real.

What was Josephus basing his stories on apart from the bible?

[drums figures on desk]

On the contrary, I have the Jewish/Roman historian Josephus on my side with regard to the existence of Moses. Living in Rome as he did he must of had access to all kinds of information about Egypt since it was a province of the Roman Empire.

No I don't have evidence, but josephus must have had some evidence...

("must have", I assume you mean.) Or perhaps he was just making it up. You have no evidence either way, just supposition.

[raises eyebrow]

There is a good chance Josephus picked up some information when he visited the Egyptian city of Alexandria with the Roman emperor. Josephus was also married in this Egyptian city.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=543&letter=J

There's a good chance he had evidence.

So, you're backing away from your earlier assertion? Or just adding another supposition?

[coughs, waiting patiently for evidence]

 

[six7s]

And why are you so concerned about proof for Moses.

Because, in a discussion ostensibly aimed at promoting critical thinking, it is important to eliminate 'circular reasoning'; this can be achieved in two ways:

1. Any posts/points suspected of such logical fallacies can be questioned
   
   
2. You can desist from making posts that employ logical fallacies, such as:

   On the contrary, I have the Jewish/Roman historian Josephus on my side with regard to the existence of Moses

 

[amb]

If Moses was real, then so was the burning bush, the crossing of the sea on dry ground, the death of all Egyptian first Born's, the Nile River turning to blood, etc, etc. And not a word on all these catastrophes in any of the Egyptian records of the time which there are an abundance.
A rabbi was once asked this very question. His answer was that they left no records of these happenings because they were utterly defeated by Yahweh through his servant Moses. What a load of baloney! There's no records because this tale just like most other tales in the babble never happened.

 

[babbits]

What the heck's a wave offering? When I read it in the OT, I thought probably the priest went up to the altar and lifted up this beautiful newly slaughtered young goat, then waved it back and forth in front of the altar, then took it home and cooked it for his supper.

 

[Simon39759]

What the heck's a wave offering? When I read it in the OT, I thought probably the priest went up to the altar and lifted up this beautiful newly slaughtered young goat, then waved it back and forth in front of the altar, then took it home and cooked it for his supper.

Pretty much. Except it is not the priest's goat. It's his neighbour's.

The goat is waved so that the neighbour can see it being offered and then the priest gets to keep it for dinner.
Not that the Bible was written by priest to gave them an excuse to parasite their neighbour or anything...

 

[Safe-Keeper]

What the heck's a wave offering?

It's when the priest kills an animal or human being in front of an audience arranged into lines of pews. As he raises the knife and brings it down to cut the throat of the animal, the people on the first line of pews rise, raise their hands, and cheer, for then to sit down. Now, just as they're halfway on their feet, the second line of people rise and repeat the cheer and arm-waving of the first line, and just as they get on their feet, the third line rises...

I hear certain Christians like it so much, they've started doing it in stadiums, too.

I thought probably the priest went up to the altar and lifted up this beautiful newly slaughtered young goat, then waved it back and forth in front of the altar, then took it home and cooked it for his supper.

Sounds incredibly messy. When something's bleeding badly, you typically try to hold it as still as possible, and even then it's nearly impossible to avoid a really bad mess.

Here I was thinking them Jews didn't like blood. Then again, they're the same guys who had a God who ordered them to go vampire on Him, so what's one to expect.

 

[DOC]

If Moses was real, then so was the burning bush, the crossing of the sea on dry ground, the death of all Egyptian first Born's, the Nile River turning to blood, etc, etc. And not a word on all these catastrophes in any of the Egyptian records of the time which there are an abundance.
A rabbi was once asked this very question. His answer was that they left no records of these happenings because they were utterly defeated by Yahweh through his servant Moses. What a load of baloney! There's no records because this tale just like most other tales in the babble never happened.

We have no signature of Julius Caesar, does that mean he never signed anything. And if your army is defeated and you are a pharaoh or your gods are discredited or another people's God is exalted why write about it and lower your standing with your own people or lower the standing of your own religion.

But this thread is about the New Testament upon which there are nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts compared to 7 manuscripts for Plato, and 20 for the Roman historian Tacitus' Annuls.

 

[joobz]

But this thread is about the New Testament upon which there are nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts compared to 7 manuscripts for Plato, and 20 for the Roman historian Tacitus' Annuls.

And evidence shows that the gospels are, for the most part, fictional stories containing obviously made up stuff (e.g., the census)

 

[DOC]

And evidence shows that the gospels are, for the most part, fictional stories containing obviously made up stuff (e.g., the census)

It's interesting how three of the main characters (Jesus, Paul, and Moses) in your so called fictional stories got to be the 3rd, 6th, and 16th, most influential people in the history of the world according to the well known book "The 100: a Ranking of the Hundred Most Influential People in History".

As I have mentioned, the author said Jesus would have been ranked #1 if his teachings played a greater role in the everyday lives of the people who claimed Christianity. For example in the Muslim religion their beliefs play a greater role in their everyday lives.

 

[Elizabeth I]

It's interesting how three of the main characters (Jesus, Paul, and Moses) in your so called fictional stories got to be the 3rd, 6th, and 12th most influential people in the history of the world according to the well known book "The 100: a Ranking of the Hundred Most Influential People in History".

As I have mentioned, the author said Jesus would have been ranked #1 if his teachings played a greater role in the everyday lives of the people who claimed Christianity. For example in the Muslim religion their beliefs play a greater role in their everyday lives.

OK, so there are a whole bunch of people who have been suckered by a book. So what? I once knew someone who thought Sherlock Holmes was a historical figure.

 

[Lothian]

It's interesting how three of the main characters (Jesus, Paul, and Moses) in your so called fictional stories got to be the 3rd, 6th, and 12th most influential people in the history of the world according to the well known book "The 100: a Ranking of the Hundred Most Influential People in History".

Well known book? You are the only person I have heard mention it. Remind me who is the number one? Who should we all be worshipping as the best ever?

 

[Simon39759]

We have no signature of Julius Caesar, does that mean he never signed anything. And if your army is defeated and you are a pharaoh or your gods are discredited or another people's God is exalted why write about it and lower your standing with your own people or lower the standing of your own religion.

... Well, yes.
We have multiple account of Egyptian defeats. Some of them are given a spin, certainly, but they just don't ignore them.

Not to mention, we are talking about military defeats, often involving but a few thousands on the edge of the empire. Not a serie of catastrophes, witnessed and experimented by everybody all over the country.
These would, arguably, be even harder to overlook.
Not to mention, not a hint of the archaeological evidences one would expect (the mass graves for the first born sons or that for the cattle, or the abandoned village from the people fleeing the famine and disease) has ever been unearthed.