Canadian Heathcare system sucks!!

[ponderingturtle]

You call it allocating, I call it rationing. Whatever. A two hour ambulance wait for any reason tells me that they have way too little resources available.

Well the proper term would be Triage.

Of course all care is rationed, how much do you want to spend in taxes to keep ambulances available for the 911 system? How many more ambulances do you want to keep fully staffed on standby who will likely never work in any given day, waiting for the bus crash?

CLearly it should be an infinite ammount of money, so that rationing will never need to happen.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Then you're getting the information you want to get, and not looking at the situation objectively.

Even here in the US, if you call emergency services for a non-emergency situation, you're going to be waiting. If you go to the ER with an ear infection, you will probably wind up waiting for a few hours so they can take care of the actual emergencies. If you call 911 asking for an ambulance because you dislocated your shoulder, they're going to tell you to get a friend to drive you, or take a cab. If you do get an ambulance, yes, you're not only going to be waiting for it, you're going to be paying for it, too.

Because they have real emergencies they need to attend to, and you're wasting their time.

Actualy you will probably not be waiting that much, at least for an ambulance, as you don't know what is really wrong with a patient from the dispatch information. Once a patient has been triaged though it is a different story(that evil rationing again)

 

[Oliver]

Your link provides you with good answers.

Still reading - but I was hoping that you give us some insight being a Canadian. Unless you think that Wiki is a more reliable source in any case, of course.

 

[Cleon]

Actualy you will probably not be waiting that much, at least for an ambulance, as you don't know what is really wrong with a patient from the dispatch information. Once a patient has been triaged though it is a different story(that evil rationing again)

Depends on where you are, what resources are available, and the person behind the phone. Really, though, it doesn't take a great deal of training to figure out that someone has had a dislocated shoulder and not a heart attack. ("So you banged your shoulder, felt a popping feeling, then intense pain, some swelling, and your arm is at a weird position and not moving well. Sounds like it could be a heart attack...")

 

[Architect]

Actualy you will probably not be waiting that much, at least for an ambulance, as you don't know what is really wrong with a patient from the dispatch information. Once a patient has been triaged though it is a different story(that evil rationing again)

Okay, we're talking solely about the Canadian system here, so apologies for throwing in something about the NHS and NHS Scotland. Until fairly recently in both systems, ambulances were dispatched on a first come, first served basis. This invariably led to problems with priority cases, and hence we moved on to a system which assesses and prioritises calls. Under those circumstances, at exceptionally busy times, you might have to wait if you had a dislocated shoulder. But I've spoken to triage nurses here, and they tend to assume the worst.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Depends on where you are, what resources are available, and the person behind the phone. Really, though, it doesn't take a great deal of training to figure out that someone has had a dislocated shoulder and not a heart attack. ("So you banged your shoulder, felt a popping feeling, then intense pain, some swelling, and your arm is at a weird position and not moving well. Sounds like it could be a heart attack...")

Depends, if it is being reported as arm pain it could easily be confused.

 

[lomiller]

Sigh…

Ambulance service is provided by the city/municipality along with police and fire, it has little if anything to do with the health care system. All of these services go to the highest priority calls first, naturally.

Physical therapy that is considered medically necessary is covered. In many cases additional coverage may be desirable and you can either pay out of pocket or buy insurance. Do you have some particular problem with medical care being paid for with private insurance?

If he was not under the care of a medical doctor then he probably has a right to sue. That doesn’t mean specific procedures can’t have been performed by someone else, after all why pay an expensive physician to perform simple tasks? You didn’t say he never consulted a physician, though, you jest tried to imply it. Very dishonest.

Doctor shortages are a problem in Canada, and yes part of that is because they can trade in their $400K per year in Canada for $1 million + in the US. To the crazy high money doctors make in the US is simply an indication of a fundamentally broken system that isn’t respecting free market pricing in any way.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sigh…

Ambulance service is provided by the city/municipality along with police and fire, it has little if anything to do with the health care system. All of these services go to the highest priority calls first, naturally.

Physical therapy that is considered medically necessary is covered. In many cases additional coverage may be desirable and you can either pay out of pocket or buy insurance. Do you have some particular problem with medical care being paid for with private insurance?

If he was not under the care of a medical doctor then he probably has a right to sue. That doesn’t mean specific procedures can’t have been performed by someone else, after all why pay an expensive physician to perform simple tasks? You didn’t say he never consulted a physician, though, you jest tried to imply it. Very dishonest.

Doctor shortages are a problem in Canada, and yes part of that is because they can trade in their $400K per year in Canada for $1 million + in the US. To the crazy high money doctors make in the US is simply an indication of a fundamentally broken system that isn’t respecting free market pricing in any way.

Not that there are not shortages of primary care doctors in the US. Finding one who is taking patients who accepts your insurance can be difficult.

 

[lomiller]

Well, how much do Canadians pay for their healthcare then? According to Wiki, you pay more than we do in Germany and you do have much less medical staff. Why is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

Higher wages, probably. Mostly driven by a shortage of doctors. Part of that comes from the fact that even though Canadian doctors are well paid, they can make a lot more a few hundred miles south in the US.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Higher wages, probably. Mostly driven by a shortage of doctors. Part of that comes from the fact that even though Canadian doctors are well paid, they can make a lot more a few hundred miles south in the US.

Actualy the $400ca is about what primary care doctors make in the US. This is why fewer and fewer people are going into primary care.

 

[lomiller]

Not that there are not shortages of primary care doctors in the US. Finding one who is taking patients who accepts your insurance can be difficult.

Indeed. In Canada doctors are almost all small businessmen who are free to see any patient they want. In some cases they have wait lists because there are simply not enough of them, but they are free to see as many/few patients as they like and can bill the Province for any procedure they perform.

It’s rather interesting to see the various lobby groups in the US not only try to spin this as some form of rationing, but actually running nightly commercials to that effect. The level of dishonesty from the right about healthcare in other countries is quite frankly staggering. Essentially they are trying to make an appeal to patriotism to convince people the US system is working better then other countries despite all the empirical evidence to the contrary.

 

[Corsair 115]

Would Canadians in general prefer to have the US system for healthcare? Don't think so.

This one particular Canadian wouldn't, for what that's worth.


Personal preference aside, a recent poll found that 70% of Canadians feel the Canadian health care system is either working well or very well. And 82% of Canadians feel our system is better than the American system. Interestingly, the support for the American system was highest in Quebec, and only 52% of respondents in Quebec said the Canadian system works well.

A news article on the poll can be read here: Canadians favour their health care to U.S. system: poll

Well, how much do Canadians pay for their healthcare then? According to Wiki, you pay more than we do in Germany and you do have much less medical staff. Why is that?

Geography probably plays a role. We've got a smaller population spread over a much greater area. That seems likely to complicate the delivery of health care and to add certain logistical costs.

 

[Trantor]

I have some retired Canadian friends who are generally happy with their healthcare system. They spend their summers here in Florida and are always scared that some major medical emergency might take place will they are here in the US. They feel that the doctors, lawyers, drug manufacturers, and insurance companies in the US are bandits, who prey on people. I don't agree with them completely, but I do see that something must be done about our healthcare system. The costs are rising fast.

I am a Human Resources Manager and part of my job is to help our employees make decisions on their health care. This year, our insurance plan increased by 20%. Last year, it was a 100% increase. The year before that, it was a 28% increase.

Our employees get a 3% or 4% pay increase every year, depending on how much profit the company makes. How long before we work only to pay for our insurance plan?

 

[Alt+F4]

Which means your rather expensive plan is being paid for by taxpayers, the majority of which are unable to access it. Canadian taxpayers pay about $3,000/year for our health care and everyone gets to access it.

And good luck accessing it if you change jobs.

Epic fail, Parky.

You're right. What I don't understand is if The City of NYC can negotiate a bulk rate with GHI why can't the federal government do that for everyone? If NYC is getting 1/3 off for say 250,000 employees who choose GHI you would think the federal government would get a whopper of discount.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

My sister works in the UK as an emergency medical dispatcher and they are trained to prioritise calls using the relevant details. She has some great stories about idiot time wasters who call them for the most trivial things (and the occasional person with mental health problems who will call just for a chat). Unfortunately ambulances cannot be refused, even if it has been ascertained that it isn't serious enough to warrant one. More senior staff are trained in talking people through certain situations too. My sister talked someone through a birth for the first time recently.

 

[Neally]

It’s rather interesting to see the various lobby groups in the US not only try to spin this as some form of rationing, but actually running nightly commercials to that effect.

So it's not actually rationing. Demand exceeds supply and since prices are frozen the wait is due to a doctor shortage. And why is there a doctor shortage?

 

[ponderingturtle]

So it's not actually rationing. Demand exceeds supply and since prices are frozen the wait is due to a doctor shortage. And why is there a doctor shortage?

Are you ever going to address the issue of doctor shortages in the US too?

 

[Alt+F4]

And why is there a doctor shortage?

I believe two of the reasons are (in the U.S.) that medical school is too expensive and primary care doctors are paid less than specialists.

 

[lomiller]

So it's not actually rationing. Demand exceeds supply and since prices are frozen the wait is due to a doctor shortage.

Prices don’t decide how many doctors there are since that’s a function of how many med school slots are available the the certification of the relavent professional society. In the US this non-free market pricing results in excessive physician salaries in addition to an overall shortage, and is one component of the much higher cost of medical care in the US.

 

[Roma]

No one goes bankrupt paying for medical care in Canada, they usually die before that while waiting for referrals or MRIs.

I spent several hours in a Canadian emergency waiting room twice this month and took a bus there both times.
The first time it was because I had dislocated my jaw. After five hours I finally saw the doctor and was told to go home because our health care doesn't cover that.
The second time was because my teenager was fainting on the volleyball court and the university phys.ed dept. was alarmed.
The triage nurse seemed particularly annoyed by my teens very presence and didn't want to let her see a doctor and told me that she was probably premenstral, I insisted, okay insisted strongly , and one hour later the doctor saw her and quickly diagnosed a heart arythmia and refered her to a specialist the next day.