Defining/Determining "Living Wage"

But it would also create jobs and increase wealth for more than just the investor if it were taxed and used to provide jobs and wealth.

I'll ask again ... just who gets wealthy off of government assistance? They may provide jobs, but seldom if ever at private industry's wages.

If you're simply putting money into circulation and investment, then it doesn't matter whose name is on the account. Carla CEO is just as good as Amber Assemblyline in that regard.

Yeah, I'm sure they have identical investment accounts. :rolleyes:

I'm not anyone, but collectively we're everyone. That's how democracy works.

You may find yourself in more of a minority than you believe yourself to be.
 
I think you guys throw out fallacy terms when you either don't understand the point being made or you don't want to recognize that you are wrong.

What the money is spent on matters very much. Do you deny this?

Not at all. We throw out fallacy terms when you blatantly engage in fallacious reasoning. Certainly, what the money is spent on matters, but no one has suggested "ditch digging programs," which makes your suggestion that that's what the government would be spending money on a straw man.

I'm sorry if logic and reason is beyond you, but that's what I've come to expect from Libertarians. They can't handle the real world so they make up one less to their liking to argue against.
 
No body takes a job that pays below the subsistence level. Otherwise they'd scavange or forage and actually do subsistence living.

Don't be ridiculous. "Subsistence living" doesn't guarantee survival either.

Where are you going to "forage" in the heart of the city? And where are you going to get money to move out of the heart of the city to farmland? And whose property are you going to "forage" on -- and why should that be permitted.
 
Daniel Kahneman-- one of only 4 psych dudes to win one.

Sorry, my mistake. All those Hebraic names start to look alike after a while.


... and of course Amos Tversky did the real work, but died before he could get his share of the prize.
 
I'll ask again ... just who gets wealthy off of government assistance?

Ah, the fallacy of equivocation comes out.

If you have food in your cupboard, you have what an economist would call "wealth." (From Wikipedia: "In economics and business, wealth (or net worth) of a person or nation is the value of assets owned net of liabilities owed (to foreigners in the case of a nation) at a point in time.")

Old Mother Hubbard had a bare cupboard; then the government gave her a free wheel of cheese and some fresh veg and now she's got more assets owned.

And because she's got food, she's now healthier. She's no longer coming down with scurvy, which means she can work more effectively and requires less medical attention. By giving the fresh veg to the people who need it, the government has created wealth.

Sure, she's not going to be trading that wheel of cheese for a condominium in Nice,... but that's not what the government wants to do, nor does it need to do that to create wealth. And in fact, it can create MORE wealth by maintaining a healthy work force than by creating more condos in Nice.
 
Ah, the fallacy of equivocation comes out.

If you have food in your cupboard, you have what an economist would call "wealth." (From Wikipedia: "In economics and business, wealth (or net worth) of a person or nation is the value of assets owned net of liabilities owed (to foreigners in the case of a nation) at a point in time.")

Old Mother Hubbard had a bare cupboard; then the government gave her a free wheel of cheese and some fresh veg and now she's got more assets owned.

And because she's got food, she's now healthier. She's no longer coming down with scurvy, which means she can work more effectively and requires less medical attention. By giving the fresh veg to the people who need it, the government has created wealth.

Sure, she's not going to be trading that wheel of cheese for a condominium in Nice,... but that's not what the government wants to do, nor does it need to do that to create wealth. And in fact, it can create MORE wealth by maintaining a healthy work force than by creating more condos in Nice.

I'll accept that as a no one.
 
I'll ask again ... just who gets wealthy off of government assistance? They may provide jobs, but seldom if ever at private industry's wages.

Who even gives a rat's whether anyone is actually "wealthy" in the snese of having more money than they can reasonably spend, if you have a large portion of your population starving?

We do not consent to being governed by laws in order to make it easier for the fat anmd pampered to hold on to what they can wring out of us. We agree to being governed in order that all have a reasonable cahnce at a decent life if we obey the simplest rules of being human.

The rich have had their tax cuts after eight years of a snivelling kakiocracy that insisted that the way to wealth was to let the top earners hold on to more of what they "earned" and look where it got us.

It does not help a laid-off working man who cannot feed his children that parasites in the mold of Ken Lay can squeeze millions out of the infrastructure and then let it collapse around us.

If it is trhe only thing left to do to keep from starving, there is no reason for the masses to even take into consideration the disapproval of society for those who kill and eat the rich.
 
THe name doesn't matter, but how it is spent matters alot.

Is the government going to dump in ditch digging programs?

Most likely the private sector is going to invest it where the money is needed the most. IE the private sector can only make money on it if people want what is produce. Government is likely to invest the money where politicians need it the most. They can always take your money again, so they don't have to be smart about it every time.

I'd much rather have the economy revolve around the wants and needs of the people rather than the wants of the politicians.

I want my government spending money on infrastructure that provides me with safe clean water, transportation, police and fire protection, an emergency room if I need emergency medical attention... the list goes on. Taxes support this, and although I may not approve of everything my taxes go towards, I'm willing to flex in the name of getting things that are of benefit to all. Ditch digging was, in fact, part of constructing Hoover Dam.
 
Cool! How many dead rich people do you need for a day's provisions?

Given the average body fat content, about 2/3 as many as you need dead poor people. Rich people are higher in concentrated nutrients, too.

But have a qualified butcher handy - cleaning those things takes about twice as long. They're full of s--- um, I don't want to breach any membership rules... :D
 
"Why people take jobs that don't pay enough to live on":

I just lost my job. I have my household belongings and sufficient food to last for 2 weeks. After searching for a better job, if none is available, I may take a job that only provides me with enough scratch to buy food for 12 days after 2 weeks of work. It won't keep me going for long, but it may keep me going long enough that I can find something better. And I hope I don't have a crisis in the meantime.
 
Libertarians think that they create their own wealth, and that all the money in the till is theirs, and they have no utilitty bills left to pay.

First of all, capital does not create wealth. Capital just manages it, and damned poorly, to judge by today's outcome.

Labor, resources and infrastructure create wealth.

Government manages resources, labor and infrastructure for the benefit of all. Government is a utility. Until you have paid your utility bill, you have no money you can call your own.

I don't know what you're talking about for the first two paragraphs. The third paragraph, "Labor, resources and infrastructure create wealth" is indeed often correct to an approximate extent, though the labor theory of value isn't always right. The fourth paragraph is correct, except for one key point. In a market, you have a choice of utility service providers.
 
In a market, you have a choice of utility service providers.

Doesn't work. Once a private company gets the right of way, how do you tell them to go away so we can re-establish our PUD?

Enron came into existance because somebody bought the idiotic notion that it was feasible to have "competition" in the energy market.

Did we ever get screwed on that deal!
 
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Question: is there any actual correlation between unemployment increases and increases in our minimum wage? I seem to recall that being part of the problem - that increases in minimum wage seem to have no obvious correspondence to increases in unemployment.
 
Who even gives a rat's whether anyone is actually "wealthy" in the snese of having more money than they can reasonably spend, if you have a large portion of your population starving?

Another no one.

It may come as a shock to you that some of us actually wish to exist beyond mere government assistance, even some who are currently on it. And there will always be starving populations, they've existed throughout history. Funny thing ... as a population they seldom if ever seem to die off. Maybe they're not as bad off as many would like to think they are.

We do not consent to being governed by laws in order to make it easier for the fat anmd pampered to hold on to what they can wring out of us. We agree to being governed in order that all have a reasonable cahnce at a decent life if we obey the simplest rules of being human.

The rich have had their tax cuts after eight years of a snivelling kakiocracy that insisted that the way to wealth was to let the top earners hold on to more of what they "earned" and look where it got us.

Tell me ... when your income taxes came due over the past 8 years, did you insist on paying more than you were asked under President Bush's rates?

It does not help a laid-off working man who cannot feed his children that parasites in the mold of Ken Lay can squeeze millions out of the infrastructure and then let it collapse around us.

Actually it does ... as more money invested becomes more money for jobs and opportunities. However, one main cause for the current collapse was irresponsibility in lending. Banks offering too much and people taking on too much risk. There's blame to go all around.

If it is trhe only thing left to do to keep from starving, there is no reason for the masses to even take into consideration the disapproval of society for those who kill and eat the rich.

What did you just say?
 
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Has it ever been shown convincingly that minimum wage laws do more good than harm?

Assume the marginal utility(is this the correct term?) to an employer of hiring another low-skilled worker is slightly below the minimum wage. That employer is going to be forced to fire and/or avoid hiring low-skilled workers under a minimum wage law as soon as reasonably possible(perhaps by investing in more automation and having fewer, higher paid workers, perhaps by outsourcing low-skilled jobs to places that don't have minimum wage laws, perhaps by finding higher skilled workers willing to work at or above the minimum wage, perhaps by just shutting down that part of their business).

Don't minimum wage laws make it difficult for young people to get an apprentice ship type position? If you have a kid that wants to be a car mechanic or cobbler or something that requires a good deal of hands on training he won't get onto the first rung of the pay ladder and can't develop the skills necessary to get above the minimum wage, so he's just going to stay unemployed.
 
Has it ever been shown convincingly that minimum wage laws do more good than harm?

Assume the marginal utility(is this the correct term?) to an employer of hiring another low-skilled worker is slightly below the minimum wage. That employer is going to be forced to fire and/or avoid hiring low-skilled workers under a minimum wage law as soon as reasonably possible(perhaps by investing in more automation and having fewer, higher paid workers, perhaps by outsourcing low-skilled jobs to places that don't have minimum wage laws, perhaps by finding higher skilled workers willing to work at or above the minimum wage, perhaps by just shutting down that part of their business).

Don't minimum wage laws make it difficult for young people to get an apprentice ship type position? If you have a kid that wants to be a car mechanic or cobbler or something that requires a good deal of hands on training he won't get onto the first rung of the pay ladder and can't develop the skills necessary to get above the minimum wage, so he's just going to stay unemployed.

This is the usual song of woe sung by those against the MW. Unfortunately for them, experience shows this isn't really the case at all.

For one thing, the first example you pick (car mechanic) already requires certain levels of certification; but any kid can learn basic auto mechanics. They even teach it in high school - the school I attended offered five years worth of auto mechanics, and students graduated (well, often just left and got GEDs later) already qualified to get the certifications they needed.

Cobblers? Do people hand-make shoes still? I imagine they do... just as there is a group near here that still makes dishes by hand and does basket-weaving. In 'trades' like these, there are many ways a young person can get in at ground level without being 'hired'.

Yes, there is a certain amount of unemployment - and there always will be, minimum wage or no. The statistics don't appear, at a glance, to support the idea that an increase in minimum wage causes an increase in unemployment. Some studies have shown this in some cases, but other studies have shown the opposite. The basic data can be deceiving, of course, since there are any number of factors that can contribute to unemployment levels at any given time; but there isn't any particular trend that matches increases in minimum wage directly. In fact, a comparison of minimum wage versus unemployment shows at times that unemployment remained unchanged - or even dropped, sometimes drastically - after minimum wages were increased.

The idea that 'apprenticeship' is, in our modern society, desirable is somewhat dated, but apprenticeships still occur. Apprenticeships were desirable when a boy became a man at twelve and had to immediately make his own way. Apprentices were also offered things like room and board as part of their payment, guarantees of a job later, and so forth.

Now, a boy becomes a man much later, has a world of educational and occupational opportunities before him, and isn't likely to be offered room and board to learn how to make shoes for two bucks a day.

Given how long we've had minimum wages (in the U.S.), this argument might have some weight if we had examples of missing industries - i.e. ones which can no longer train new people because of that horrible issue of having to pay a fair wage for a day's work. Granted, many companies have outsourced their lower-wage duties to other countries, and this has contributed to the current unemployment crisis. But are we really willing to see our friends and neighbors working in unsafe sweatshops for 18 hours a day, only to earn enough for a loaf of bread and a head of cabbage a week?

It is important to remember that the minimum wage was designed to improve the quality of life of the working class - and it has done this. Yes, a minimum wage may edge out some people from certain jobs, but as so many libertarians and conservatives want to point out (when it's convenient), if they really want to work, they'll find a way.

I find it's always useful to look at who the unemployed are in any given community. Around here, for example, there are a lot of construction people out of work, simply because no one is buying new homes or putting in new businesses. I've spoken to many of them from time to time, and one thing that struck me is that out of any ten, there's always one or two that simply find the jobs nationally, and travel to get the work they need; the rest whine and complain, but are unwilling to move to get work. Yes, a few cannot move; I can respect that. But they aren't seeking other work, either - nor are they seeking education in order to change careers, even when it's offered to them.

Another sector, as always, are the teens - kids fresh out of high school, unwilling or unable to go to college - yet, amazingly, unwilling to actually hold a job. They'll go to work at our local convenience store - which always pays somewhat more than minimum wage - and then whine about how much WORK they have to do and quit in a week. Then they're back in the store a week later, whining that they can't find a job.

Ridding ourselves of minimum wage won't get rid of the sector of unemployed that are basically lazy. In fact, paying them even less is likely to cause a lot of workers to quit - why work a full day if you can't get a day's provisions from your wages?

What it WILL get rid of is the standard of living we as Americans have come to embrace - and I'm not talking about cable IV and iPods and flashy cars; I'm talking about living in safe housing, with nutritious food, health care, and the ability to get emergency services as needed. So unless we're going to do something drastic, like a base salary for all Americans or a total-support welfare state, we need a minimum wage that can provide for these necessities.

As for what employers have to do to get the labor they need, if they can't afford the basic price of a worker, then maybe they need to reconsider their business model. I don't see any of these anti-MW folks also arguing that the tools, supplies, buildings, and other needs of an employer should be sold to him at lower-than-wholesale price! But that's what they're arguing with workers.

Minimum wage is like a wholesale price. If a businessman cannot afford the worker, the businessman had better come up with a better plan. If that involves buying knockoff workers from foreign countries, that's fine - but watch out for the authorities... :p

So unless you're going to argue that companies should be able to buy factory equipment, raw materals, and so forth at lower-than-wholesale prices, don't try to argue that they should be able to buy workers that way.
 
A minimum wage actually benefits small businesses in that the working class can afford to buy stuff from the mom and pop restruants, the small grocerey and so on. They might even be able to open their own small businesses and employ more people locally.

But when Wal Mart pays less than a living wage and takes all the profits back to Arkansas, what does that do for a small town in Oregon that used to exist to suppport an agricultural ecconomy?
 

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